Need suggestions about 2 yr old who doesn't fear consequences

We had similar problems with our f/a sons. They came to us at 2yrs and 3 yrs old. It's really just a phase that they go through. Just be consistant with discipline. At one point we used housework as a form of discipline. The rule at our house is that if you can't behave playing you're going to help Mommy clean. At first the boys thought it was fun, but after a few time outs they hated cleaning. They are also very competivite and would see the other one getting to play or watch cartoons while they had to help clean. We also use time-outs. (Standing with your nose against the wall). I know it sounds strange, but there's really no way for them to play or hurt themselves. We had a lot of time-out chair boo-boos from rocking in the chair. And sitting in the corner was just a play time for them. You really have to find what works and stick with it. As few distactions as possible for time-out are great. Also at the end of time-out I ask my son(s) what it is he did to get a time-out, and why he did it. You'll be surprised that history doesn't tend to repeat itself often. Now we've had our sons 7 months and 6 months. The first 3-4 months are the worst. They tested every single rule that we had. They were constantly in time out. But then came the time where it all stopped. Now they're in time-out about 2 time a week for bad behavior, instead of 8-12 times a day. You'll notice as the children attach their behaviors will dramitically improove. So be consistant and let time pass. :) LeenaB

Don't give up! It's a tough road but it does get better. The posts above contain some great advice about facilitating attachment. Our son was very similar. We definitely felt that we couldn't handle him but he came to us at age three from a RTC and I knew that would put him back in residential treatment if we couldn't handle it. Two years later things are much better. He has learned to cope with the word no without a screaming fit (most of the time-lol). He no longer bites himself or others, he rarely hits. He is still a major challenge but we have adapted to it and learned the best ways to approach a particular situation. Attachment therapy has been a huge help. Probably the most difficult thing is social situations. While others children can participate in soccer and T-ball, my son falls apart. We found things he can do like theraputic horsebackriding and gymnastics (I shadow him through the lesson to keep him on task and prevent any incidents with other children). he completed kindergarten but it took a one-on-one assistant to get him thru the day. It's a lot of work but underneath all the anger, is a sweet little boy who we love very much and he loves us as well. I guess I've rambled off topic, but my point is, even if it is seems impossible, things do get better. Gather all the information and support you can get and look for the humor even when things are at their worst. Good luck, Christy

First time foster parents here of sibling boys 8, 4, and 18 month. The first few months was rough. The boys were always testing. The 2 youngest ones have adjusted well, but this has taken almost 8 months. The 8 year old has 'his moments' that sometimes last for a couple weeks. (We are still working with him - and looking into RAD. Try those websites lucyjoy mentioned. I did and they were helpful). What worked for the younger two was CONSISTANCY! There were days that were really long and I got no work done. And there were days that I chose not to do any work and just played the day with them -that seemed to help too. What also helped me was after getting to know them a little better, I was able to avoid situations where I KNEW something would happen. Example: right now, the 18 month old will not stop trying to crawl behind the couch. Nothing worked, as he was a determined little guy. So I decided not to play this game and moved the couch so he can't do that anymore. I know that sounds trivial to what you must be going through, but if I see a pattern, I don't waste my time and engergy with correction. I just 'zapp it'! I know you are fustrated at times. Please hang in there! You are probably the only stability these guys have ever had! Even if something does not work at first, don't throw the idea away. Try it again later down the road. Time outs did not work for the first few months with the 4 year old. Now, for some reason, they do.

about 6 weeks ago we moved are 2 1/2 fs to a toddler bed. The first 3 weeks he did not get up. The next 2 weeks he would get up at about 5 am and get in are bed. now he keeps getting up when i put him to bed. It was almost 1 am when he finally whent to sleep i must have put him back in bed about 50 times. I tred reading him books letting him watch a 15 m in cartoon/ giving him warm milk nothing worked any ideals would be helpful/ I would really hate to put the crib back up He can climb out of that now anyway He has been taking a 2 hour nap during the day but now he only takes about hour nap. and no matter what time he goes to sleep he is always up with a big smile at the crack of dawn

For a tramatized child Time Out can be time to remember and replay the past--especially if the child is isolated or left alone. I stopped using time-out months ago and have not regreted it. TIME IN works much better for our children who expereinced abuse and neglect. As for a 2-year old I think it is a phase as well--they do not say Terrible Twos for no reason.....the fact is Two is a very hard time for little ones they are starting to get so much independance but the world is all about "MINE".... They are also trying so hard to communicate and don't have all the words they wish they did. Our son is 2 and a half and I honestly think he would look at me like I lost my mind if I told him to take a time out! Redirection is my best answer with a 2 year old. And it does not always work.... When it does not I rock him or play with him.... Knowing there are numbered days that he will get to enjoy being a little toddler left.... I havn't seen them use time out at his pre-school either.... So I am thinking that the majority of 2-year olds are not ready for cause and effect thinking.

Redirection doesn't work with this child and at his behavior evaluation the pediatrician recommended time outs. She also said time outs are also for the parent to take a breather. When I put him in time out, I always ask him if he knows what he did to get there, and he can always tell me what it was he did. RJAOO, I'm not sure on your questions, because our 2 1/2 year old has started doing the same thing. His crib also converts to a toddler bed, so we put it back to a crib and he got out. Not only is he getting out of bed, but when he does get out he is horribly destructive breaking lots of things.

Baby's R Us (and I am sure many other places) sells a Crib Tent it is mesh with Velcro and attaches to the crib and zips shut. Our little boy was able to get out of his crib at 14 mos! I don't have any intention of moving him to his real bed for some time as I worry about him getting out of the house or going into the garage during the night... Most regular doctors who have NO experience with Foster children or children adopted at an older age will advise the regular parenting methods to all parents. Our Ped advised breaking my son from his bottle at one year--the Therapist advises NOT to take the bottle away until he is ready. I could write several examples of how the advice our doctor has given is not appropriet with our children because of the unique issues they have in their lives. Our Doctor has advised MANY MANY standard parenting ideas which have been proven over and over to be ineffective with children with traumatic pasts and attachment issues...The Schools offer many ideas that Do Not work for children with abuse or neglect or attachment issues... I am not sure why Time Outs are an issue if they don't work then they don't work.... and they sure didn't work with my children who had horrible pasts....most of thier lives before entering Foster Care was a big fat Time OUT....so why would it make a difference once in a safe home? I know with my daughter all she does is miss her birthmother more if she is in a time out...The doctor is not trained to understand or even know the correct answers to give me.... He wanted us to allow our little boy to cry himself to sleep at night only a few weeks after coming into our home.... NOT in this house with new parents...sorry I am not going to leave him crying...he needs to learn that adults are dependable and his needs will be met. Have you been able to develope any relationship with a therapists who understands adoption/foster children issues especially attachment? Do you have any support services for Foster Parents in your state or county?

I have come to believe that time outs dont work, the point of time out is to get them to think about the wrong choices they made. They already know what they did to get into time out and most of their time out time is spent coming up with a way to "pay you back" When I got my fs and with my bio kids I was a strong believer in time out I have figured out it just dont work {on most children} My boy's therapist keeps saying be creative. We are working on coming up with things that work. Natural conseqences work best, that teaches them responsiblity and takes you out of their problem. For hitting or name calling I have my kids pay the person back, {ex. do other child's chores, wait on them] For being rowdy instead of consequence I take them all outside and we play simon says [which helps get them use to following directions] we do this until I see that they are getting tired then they take deep breaths and strech they are more relaxed and it wasnt a control battle. When they take time out of my day to correct them they do something for me for wasting my time [ex one of my chores, rub my back] If you havent yet there are several love and logic books that will help also Nancy Thomas's book When love is not enough. It helped me alot I do have to go back once and awhile and re read things I make quick notes. I think also if you give the same consequence over and over they get use to it and its not a big deal, shake it up some, if you keep it changing and they never know what to expect it helps curb some of it. Also when you see them make a good decsion make a BIG deal out of it high five dance make up a song about the good choice when you see him make a bad choice use a flat tone no big deal type of thing dont show him it ruffles your feathers kids love to see a reaction.

I know you are on vacation now, but I had to ask... You mentioned "Time In". What is that? I have never heard of that concept, and would be eager to hear more. I did not have success with time outs with the 8 year old. Time outs seem to work for the 4 year old (most days) and the 18 month old is too young to understand time out. I hope you have a lovely vacation! Get some rest for me too!

I thought I would address time in. Time in is just what it sounds like, time in your presence. Instead of having the child sit in a chair away from you (which really works best when the child wants to be spending time with you or will actually sit there) the child has to spend time with you. My friend used it to great effect with her teen fs. When he was in trouble he had to spend time with her. Depending on the severity, the closer it was. In the same room, 5 feet away, right next to her. It takes a great deal of effort on your part and does not give you the break that a time out can, but for children who are testing whether you care for them or not, it can be a good tool.

1 OF 2 Mom Thanks for your reply. Hmmmmmmm. I think I could do it with the little ones, but I am not too sure if I could do it with the 8 year old. He has learned too many mind games, and there are those times were the time out would be the best for him AND me! Thanks again. I will have to see if I can incorperate that one in my creative correction arsenal!

Hi, I'm a Bio-mother to 5 wonderful children, ages 3, 6, 14, 19, 23. (yeah, 20 years apart), provided Daycare for foster children and others, and I, myself, was adopted at 22 months. Whenever possible, use your "MATTER-OF-FACT" tone of voice. No over-reacting or raising your voice. Save loud voices for getting their attention when the child has place himself or others in danger, such as running toward the road, or biting. For some children, some of what they do is just to get a reaction out of you. (It falls into the - 'negative attention is better than none' category, which for some children, negative behavior was the only time they got any attention at all. It also falls uder the - TESTING 1,2,3, TESTING category, so be consistant. MAKE THINGS, MAKE SENSE. For example, If the child throws food, don't put him in time-out while you clean up, make him help clean it up. (Even if you have to hold the paper towel in his hand and guide his hand). If he breaks something, have him help you fix it, (even if it may not be useable again). If he writes on the wall with the crayon, take the crayons away and have him wash the wall with your help. As you are doing this, explain why the behavior was wrong. While making the "punishment fit the crime", it also keeps the child by your side and sends the message, 'I won't leave you just because you've done something naughty', and avoids the "I don't want you around us because you are bad" feelings. As far as "TIME-OUT", use this for times when he can't get along with others. Explain if you can't play nice, you can't play at all, but always keep in mind the age of the child, 1 minute for every year in age. It doesn't seems like very long but it is effective, longer periods of time only allow time for their minds to wander to other things. As the child grows older, have him sit in the chair and tell him he can get up when HE thinks he can behave. (This was always interesting to me, sometimes they'd be out of the chair in a couple of minutes, other times they sat there quite awhile, ???????????) For older children that are fighting with each other, try this - Have both children sit in chairs and tell them they can't get up until they have the permission of the other! They usually make up quickly and are best buddies again. AVOID problems whenever possible, doesn't get along well in groups - visit the playground when it's not busy. Short attention span - place out only a few toys at a time. Items you care about - put them out of reach, etc. This helps to cut back on the number of corrections per day so they don't "block you out". KEEP THE RULES FEW AND SIMPLE. *** REWARD*** positive behavior without going overboard. Tell him you are proud of him but more importantly, tell him HE SHOULD BE PROUD OF HIMSELF. In the end, this is who he has to please, who he'll have to answer to and it is one of THE BEST FEELINGS EVER. HAVE A ROUTINE and stick to it. Children do better when they know what to expect. Bedtime routines are especially important. WATCH WHAT HE EATS, the sugar intake, red dyes, caffine, etc. EXPECT HIM TO BEHAVE - most children do what is expected of them. Find away to convey this message and carry on as though you know he's capable of it. For example, going to the grocery store - tell him exactly how you expect him to behave and what will happen if he doesn't, like next time he won't be allow to go. NOTE - some problems cease(outburts) as vocabulary increases. Keep in mind - BEING 2 IS ALL ABOUT YOU! (meaning them) In their mind the world revolves around them. It is also the age of independence, (They'll go through many of the same behavioral patterns again in their teenage years). You probably know and have tried some of what I have mention, but sometimes it helps to know how others approach similar issues. Good luck. Mary

We are home! Thank goodness. We did this last summer too when the children had only been placed for 6-months and I have to tell you that last year was MUCH BETTER then this years trip! WHY? Well, last year when our children had been with us for only 6-months there was not as much of an attachment---and there was not as much security in our children EVEN the baby! So we were not TESTED nearly as much as we were this summer! And in one way the NEW testing behaviors is a blessing because our children FEEL SAFE to be who they are! Time In's--I find them to be great because they can be done any place at anytime! You do not need a special chair or place Time In can even happen at Disneyland! They can take a flexible form depending on the situation at hand. For example at Disneyland when Makala lost control of herself we were able to place her on time in....with mommy. Did this mean she could not ride the rides--or have fun? Yes and No...She could ride the rides Mommy wanted to ride--and if mommy didn't want to ride she had to wait and watch daddy and brother have a little fun.... When a child is on Time in it can last as long as it needs to last. Daddy and brother don't have to stay home and miss out on fun in fact no activitiy needs to be ruined and no one has to stay behind with the child who is in trouble. It is so great! When one of mine is on Time In that child is stuck to my hip...If I need to go food shopping that child has to go too...If I need to clean the bathroom floor upstairs that child either helps me clean it or sits and watches me do it... With the little one he even goes to the bathroom when mom has to go.... If someone is on Time In and we have a family birthday party to attend we do not have to call and cancel in order to deal with the child in trouble--that child just has to sit next to mom the whole time.... In many cases the other family or friends are not even aware there is a child in trouble because we do not have to say so--the child knows the rule and has privacy with their punishment..... It would be different if we had to call and say we were sorry we could not attend because a child was in trouble and the next time the family got toghether the cousins would be asking questions...Time In elimintates this need.... Also using the Time In method is a good Attachment method. The child is stuck with you and as the parent we do not have to be mean about it...we can make it as meserable as we decide to make it...but the child is not left alone thinking of Lord only knows what.....? They do not feel rejected or isolated... In some cases a Time in can tranform into a situation of one on one time with a child... In some cases a Time in can trun into a special moment....For example: At Disneyland while Makala was on time in she didn't get to ride Dumbo but mom had a deep desire to eat some Cotton Candy and in this case the child stuck as my side was given a bite or two....of that sticky pink sugar! Of course it is also important to NOT give the impression that getting in trouble means there is a reward in it.... So be careful about making Time In MORE special then other times.... Make sure as the parent that you offer the child their OWN cotton candy to eat all by themselves during a time they are NOT on time in.... AS for a 2-year old not fearing consequences! We spent our vacation testing our exactly 2 and 1/2 year old and HE HAD NOT FEAR! None at all.... He wanted to do what he wanted to do and no amount of reasoning with him was going to work! On the whole vacation the ONLY thing we found he even remotely feared was losing something such as a toy or a treat.... and even then it was 'iffy' as to haw much understanding he had of it. We often put his TOY in time out and that appears to be somewhat effective... And he hated losing a treat or being offered a graham cracker when sissy got an ice cream... But he did appear to understand IF it all happened Right away. We tried about ten times to see if he would go to a time out simply by telling him to do so--HA HA that was NOT going to happen.... He does get time outs now and then.... His are generally no longer then 2 mins (one min for every year in age is the recomended time) and our method of timeing him out is to hold his face to a wall or other boring spot for the 2-mins... But he never would go to the spot on his own...we do have to put him there and hold him.... We repeatibly tested to see if he might ever go to time out on his own will and NO way will he. I was just reading a booklet about attachment and there is clear indication that redirection does not always work with a child who as an attachment issue. Also some symptoms of a child with attachment issues are a lack of cause and effect thinking as well as a delay with consequences meaning anything... So for a 2-year old I would investigate attahcment methods and start trying to understand some of the dynamics. A great Foster parent would want to help a little one age 2 learn how to attach even if you decide not to adopt this child the efforts made on teaching the child attachment skills can very much help him not develope serious attahcment problems such as RAD. A child who has developed a skill in attachment has a better chance of attaching agian a child who does not devolope the skills is at risk for many more issues with attachment later. The sooner we can help the child the better off this child will be even if you choose to not adopt I hope you will consider the impact you might have on helping to aviod another child being dx with RAD.

Hi Anna I just wanted to thank you for going more in depth with time in. Last week, I talked it over with my husband, and we decided to try it out on the four year old. (though I have to admit we chose him first because we thought he might have the best reaction out of the three boys...you know, to help build up our confidences before we try it on the other two whom usually prove to be a little tougher!) It was kinda weird at first, as I felt I was 'rewarding' misbehavior with 'time with Mammie'. But then I noticed something...the small effort I put out with time in, produced a better result than normal! An added benefit - the four year old responed better, and I have another 'trick of the trade' to add to my collection! In the past week, I have used it a few times with positive results. Will it work everytime? No, I don't think so. But, for alot of the things this four year old does - I believe this will work out fairly good! Now, all I have to do is get motivated to try it out on the other two! Thanking you in advance!

The feeling that we are rewarding them is one side effect that sometimes makes us aviod this approach.... I know exactly what you mean! BUT--remember that you do have control over the time in situations and they can last as long as needed.... It is a hard way to go on US sometimes and it can feel like we have been controlled... But, watching mom clean toilets is less then rewarding sometimes and if you ever try it at a function where the child is not running around with the other children for awhile trust me it will not feel rewarding to the child! I think with time in the duration is the key to making it NOT a reward... With Makala if she happens to get herself into a BIG time in situation it is usually an afternoon of time in...meaning a whole lot of boring mom stuff and not much fun... It can get real boring watching me post on the internet and olny having a piece of paper and pencil to play with in the chair next to me.... It does not feel rewarding when it is boring... And there is nothing worse then watching me vacuume or clean the cat box...a job that will one day be yours so watch closely.... NO Time out will not always work...It will not work if we cannot follow through with it...or if we are not able to stick it our ourselves... I must tell you there are times I really hate it... but, know it will have the greatest impact.... .........And in some ways it is the kind of reward that is great for attachment.