Am I being too hard on them?????

I didn't read the other replies (yet), so here is my take on your situation: there is a lot going on, and a lot of expectations for a brand new placement. Remember, these are foster kids, not 'normal' kids, you might have no idea how their lives were BEFORE your 'normal' household took them in... maybe they never brushed teeth before? maybe they didn't have a toilet that flushes? maybe they were never told to shower, be clean, brush hair? Maybe the only 'chore' the 12 year old ever had, was to survive? to eat? to look after the little one? maybe... who knows? and now they are expected to be 'normal', they might not know what that means? for now, scale back in your expectations. And YES, put up lists, put a note up in the bathroom, with smile faces!, 'did you flush? wash your hands?', a note at the bathroom mirror: brush your teeth :) once they come out of the bathroom, ASK, did you flush? did you brush your teeth? if in doubt, go and check, and if they didn't, make them go back, and do it, but with a smile on your face, not a sour puss. about the chores: put a 'daily chore list' on the fridge, or the kitchen wall, where she can LOOK, and SEE what she still has to do, it will make a world of difference for her to be able to visualize what is expected, instead of remembering... just think, her WHOLE WORLD is upside down, nothing is the same, everything is NEW, and it's overwhelming! don't expect her to ' be a 12 year old', you don't know what that means in HER world.. be her cheer leader. Praise everything she did right. Praise for clean sparkly teeth! praise for a clean room, praise for a great shower, and how GOOD she smells! does she have her own body spritz, shower stuff? if not, go shopping with her, and let her pick some out.. all hers!! she will cherish it (hopefully, lol) as for the 5 year old, don't expect her to 'be 5', treat her like a 2 year old. When she screams, try to hold her, rock her, softly sing to her. She is probably scared out of her mind... *I* would be, if *I* would be just taken, and put in someone else s household! no matter how 'bad' her home was, it was home, it was familiar. Crazy, filthy, probably, but familiar/home. don't be afraid of physical contact. HUG a LOT! touch the shoulder, as you walk by. Rub a back, when they sit at the table. Compliment their hair, and brush it for them... (lots of great talks can come out of just sitting there, brushing... while they are talking...) smile. a lot. hope that helped. ps. I had 2 older kids once, and when I gave them their tooth brushes the first night here, they looked at them, looked at the tooth brushes, and started to brush their hair... they had NEVER used a toothbrush before in their lives!! they were 7 and 9 years old. they had no idea how to shower. How to wash hair. How to use soap/shower gel. they only knew about hunger, drugs, boyfriends, girlfriends, (of the parents), fights, chaos. They knew that one can meet 'men' on the internet, they knew sex moves, they knew nothing about 'normal'... nothing!! 5 years later... and they still remember their first meal in my home. Spaghetti and meatballs. This was the FIRST meal in forever somebody cooked just for THEM... before that, when they complained, that they were hungry, mom would tell them: go to sleep, then the hunger goes away. THAT was their NORMAL. food was only available in school. if there was no school, they had no food. They would tell me, they would 'steal' food from the trash can, in school, to take home, so they had something to eat... I know this got long, but I really try to ask you to try to understand the kids.... scale down on your expectations, built UP on them, as time goes by.... right now, it's all new, for them, and for you. best wishes.

In the OP, I got the idea she was just nagging the child with "reminders." Do this. Don't do that. Did you do this? I've told you 1000 times to do that. It is very normal for us to do those things with 3yos. You even take them by the hand to lead them in the right direction. But in the preschool years and definitely in elementary, when we've had children that long, we switch it from our responsibility to their responsibility. Now, this is when a lot of people start punishing the child for not "remembering" (often times, it is simply testing limits or not seeing any real reason to remember since mom is often still nagging). The problem with that is that nagging and throwing out punishment still leaves all the responsibility on the parent. Now, there is no way to completely take ourselves out of the equation. If it were, kids wouldn't need parents anyhow. But the goal should make it where the child was thinking about what was done, what needs to be done, and them doing it for better reasons than I'll not get to watch my sitcom this evening. And these things are even MORE important for a foster child who we really can't depend on someone being there for to wipe their backsides even for the next year, much less when they go home. Well, even if we adopt, just because they've had a neglectful childhood doesn't change the fact that we still only have until they are 16 to 21 years old just like everyone else does to give them life skills. SO there is a lot of discipline (teaching and guidance) that goes into these things. We talk about why we flush the toilet and brush our teeth. We role play how to broach subjects with family members (and teachers and later bosses and whoever else). And this is where we go to figure out how to make a things to do list we'll be able to use. When my kids were 3, 4, and 5, we had picture schedules in the morning. They simply pulled off the things they had already done so they could see what left they had to do. My (then) 4yo was a champ. He could do what he could remember, pull off the pictures, see he still needed to put on shoes, read, and take medication, get it done, and all was good. My daughter preferred a later method where they moved clothes pins from the left to the right as they finished them. Each clothes pin had a responsibility (brush teeth, feed dog, wipe light switches) on it. Each kid had their own foam board with clothes pins. Anyway, did I still have to do some reminding? "Tumbler, go look at your board." Some keeping on track? "What are you supposed to be doing?" some checking? "Anyone ready for inspection?" ABSOLUTELY. And the consequence is built-in. If you haven't finished, you need to figure out what it is you're missing and get to it. No, I'm not going to tell you what it is when you're EIGHT. No, I'm not going to do your chore for you. YES, you are going to redo whatever you didn't do at least minimally well (or choose to do something like put your underwear in your shorts drawer for whatever reason). But build in the consequence: "When your responsibilities are taken care of, you may ______________ (anything under the sun)." Also, for a morning routine, the consequence of not getting things done in a timely fashion is to have to get up earlier until you *can* manage to get it all done before the school bus arrives. In time, they figure the right time to get up, just like we adults do. A child who has trouble flushing may need that to be one of their written responsibilities. They also probably need that to be their chore. Anyway, the idea is to help them figure out 1) what needs to be done, 2) how to get it accomplished, 3) and then let them have at it. I just can't buy into rewards or punishment. The built-in reward in life is that as you accomplish more responsibility, you get more opportunity. I don't give the opportunity without the responsibility. If I give a reward, it is because I want to, not that I have to. And in the real world, for law-abiding citizens, there are very few punishments. There are consequences. And a family needs to work with each other to make sure that they live with the level of smell, mess, etc they can deal with. And we can't rely on natural consequences for some things because the natural consequences to running into the street or not brushing your teeth are too great. Discipline means to teach and to guide. I'm not going to be there at 25 to make sure they are doing everything or punish them if they don't. And with foster kids, it could be that I won't be there at 13 to do it. We need to give them life skills (how tos, thinking skills, reasoning abilities, etc) NOW. It may mean that we discuss things more formally with our foster kids. We teach them how to cook. We teach them to stretch food. We teach them what a healthy meal looks like. We discuss in detail the issues with neglecting teeth and what they can do instead. We might teach them to coupon so they have a toothbrush no matter where they are (toothbrushes are always free or pennies when you coupon). We give to the food bank (our own version of not picking up the grapes on the ground in the vineyard - Leviticus 19) and....well, you get the point. For me, I see an urgency regarding filling in gaps at 12. If you have a 12yo on the level of a 3yo in terms of taking care of themselves, family, and home, then you have some catching up to do too. Add that they are a foster child, you have to help them catch up AND get them, ideally, ahead of the game and do it in possibly a short amount of time. The good thing is that it takes a 12yo a lot less time to learn than it takes a 3yo. So...yes, lots of responsibility. Yes, consequences as necessary, but preferably built-in logical ones rather than punishment. Mostly, a lot of discipline (guidance and teaching). Get them finding tools that will work for them. Get them thinking. Get them doing. Pull yourself out of the equation to the degree possible. If you find yourself pulled in, work with kiddo in ways to ease your way back away again.

I should have just said, "see mamallama's post above." My kids have fond memories of their do2learn picture schedules :)

I should have just said, "see mamallama's post above." My kids have fond memories of their do2learn picture schedules :) I see myself as a facilitator and cheerleader. I really don't want to nag, order, and punish nor do I find those things to be particularly helpful. And I have raised a couple children to adulthood without them :)

I want to clarify my OP a bit so you have a better understanding of the situation. The thing is, I DONT nag. I ask questions and give gentle reminders. I use the advice from these books - The Connected Child, Parenting With Love and Logic, Raising Foster Children, etc. Here is my typical way of reminding as an example. FD12 is sitting on the couch at 7:00 (we leave at 7:20) with hair tangled, books all over the desk, dirty clothes on the bathroom floor, etc. I say "hon, we need to get ready to leave in 20 minutes. Can you please ------- so we aren't late to school?" That is me "nagging". I never TELL someone to do anything. I ask. I will ask - "would y'all (FD12 and BD9) like to unload the dishwasher before lunch or after tv time?" Thing is, no matter what options I give, if I don't ask- it won't get done. And I have had a daily chore list up in my home for years- for BD9- and changed it to include foster kiddos when they were placed and had a month to settle in some.

I didn't read everyone's replies. Here, especially for the older kiddos, there really aren't consequences per se. They have to do chores before video games or computer time. No chores? No problem. Oh, you want to use the xbox? Sure as soon as your chores are done! Teeth brushing/personal hygiene, I have a time FSalmost 16 has to be done with brushing teeth and getting ready for bed. I check in with him after that time, and if he is done, he can continue to watch TV until room time. If not, TV goes off, he does his stuff then goes to his room (there is 30 minutes between when he is supposed to have his teeth and such done and his room time), I usually check in 15 minutes after. Most kids need reminders at least some of the time. Heck, I do myself. good luck.

Oh, one more thing I thought of on flushing the toilet, some families/places don't flush for everything. "If its yellow, let it mellow. If its brown, flush it down." If she didn't HAVE water in her prior living situations, she wouldn't have been able to flush. When we had city water, we flushed everything. Now we are on well and septic, so we let pee sit until the next person uses it. Poop ALWAYS gets flushed. Good luck.

Does she have her own room? If so, you might want to just close the door. Being messy seems to be a right of passage from 11 to 15 (sometimes older). If she doesn't do her laundry, she'll only have dirty clothes to wear. The first time her friends ask her why her clothes are dirty, rumpled or same clothes she wore the day before, she'll do laundry. As for her teeth, she has to brush them. And she probably doesn't brush them correctly or remember to floss. Even though it sounds babyish, you might want to brush her teeth for her in the morning just to make sure they get one good scrubbing a day. Also, you can floss her teeth before bed with those little floss sticks. She probably doesn't concern herself with cavities. I would take her to the dentist for a check up. There is prescription toothpaste you can get if she's prone to cavities. Also, hearing the dentist say "You need to brush" might make more of an impression on her. If you don't want to assist her with her teeth, you can remind her that her dragon breath will kill her friends if she leaves the house without brushing her teeth. She'll be more likely to brush to avoid embarrassment with her friends rather than to avoid cavities.

She shares a room so I don't have the option of just leaving it , unfortunately. She has gone to the dentist and had a cavity filled. Dentist told her "you only have to brush/floss the teeth you want to keep" which I thought was a great way to look at it. As for her laundry - she will wash them once she remembers that she really wanted to wear a certain pair of jeans, and she remembers that said jeans along with every other pair of jeans she owns are dirty - 30 minutes before school starts. Then I hear the whining that she's got nothing to wear. My response is "I'm sorry, that stinks. Maybe you should wash your clothes before it gets to this point." And then I'm accused of "always telling her what to do".

Great pun!

I tried to follow the parenting advice in those books. I really did. I tried to give choices. I am in sales. The choice close works almost every time. Not so with M. She WANTS us to tell her what is expected of her. She also wants to complain about having to do it, but she does do it, so eh, pick your pattles right? Asking in our home is asking for a battle. So you might want to try telling instead of asking, if you haven't already. Again, short instructions: Dishes, lunch, then you can watch TV or Ok kiddo, we've got twenty minutes - hair, books, dirty clothes in the hamper, then you can watch a few minutes of TV if there is time before school. (If the TV is on at breakfast, M will not get ready until it is time to walk out the door.) You may have to do this every day, every time it is time to brush her hair or put her clothes in the hamper, until it becomes habit. If that is nagging, I don't think you can avoid it as a parent. I read somewhere it takes three weeks to make or break a habit and that's IF one is doing putting in the effort EVERY DAY. When you add in the normal adjustment and testing period that comes with foster care, three weeks becomes three months pretty fast. M is just now starting to do her dishes and feeding the dogs without reminder. And this weekend was the very first time she washed a load of her laundry before ALL of them were dirty. It has been seven months.

I'm not sure if this is the case for the OP's FD, but here's what has completely frustrated me as a new FP who hasn't parented before. When relying on the kid to be pressured into doing something by peer pressure or because they want something like playing video games or watching tv, you're at a loss when they don't care. My former 9 year old FD didn't care if she wore the same stinky clothing to school every day. That was completely normal for her. She was likely used to being made fun for smelling. I felt judged as a FP and worried about what people thought of me and whether I was buying them new clothes. A parent of a classmate of the 16 year old "donated" clothes to us because of what she was wearing to school. Same thing with relying on kids wanting to have friend over so they clean their room or they don't get to watch tv until their room is clean. I worry about the CW coming over and seeing that their room is a mess. Or if they have made a mess in the kitchen or tracking mud through the house and refuse to clean it up. What if there's a surprise visit by a CW or GAL. I'm a neat freak, and it's hard to give up that type of control to a kid who shrugs and doesn't care if my house is a mess or what anyone thinks of her.

^^^^ This!!! That is my situation. She could care less because she is used to living in a hovel. I'm not going to let my household mimic the situation she was removed from to begin with. But I'm nagging and being too strict. When compared to what she is accustomed to- I'm sure I seem like a drill sergeant. But I only ask for basic respect of our home and try to teach them to respect themselves.

As I alluded to before, this has been our experience as well. It is also why I typically raise an eyebrow at any FP I have met that has pushed the Love & Logic training. Don't get me wrong, I think Love & Logic is great, but in order to have it work for our kids from tough places, it would have to be modified quite a bit. In an ideal world, children would refuse to brush their teeth, get a cavity, hate the dentist's drill, and then fix their brushing habits thereafter. Let's face it, that kind of logic is tough even for kids from healthy backgrounds, but for our kids that come to us from hard places it is downright impossible. Which is exactly why non-traditional thought like that of Purvis or Forbes or Thomas (although Thomas is dangerously close to just another L&L teacher) is so valuable to us. Attachment first, new perspective second, and then L&L can occur. Making the first two occur is what bio parents don't have to think about much. It's all FP's CAN think about. The ones that figure out how to do it? They're heroes.

Exactly my point. I am so glad that our agency is now using the TBRI instead of the Love & Logic - makes so much more sense for the kids that come from the hard places. We can't expect children coming into our homes to suddenly get the rules and to comply with our lifestyles when everything is so different than what they are used to, even for simple daily things like brushing teeth and flushing the toilet. Children are not logical and cannot easily connect the dots between their actions and the results, even under the best of circumstances.