Acting out after visits

Thanks We were doing more visits and trying to do things more interactive with the kids. But then their birthmom spent several months in rehab and then several more in jail. (I don't allow visits in either of those places) Longer visits have always been a problem, because the girls become very agressive so I don't want to do that either. Diane

My wife and I went through this with our last placement. Two sibling girls 4/8. At first it was frustrating, because the girls would act up around me after the visits when my wife was not around. For example, the weekend after the visits I would be taking the girls to daycare and the 8 year would say some mean and rottne things about me or the situation. Things like 'you don't like children, your just doing this because wifes_name wants you too' or 'I can't wait to go home.' In some cases the child would refuse to do anything I asked completely to the point where I thought she was going to disobey me and either hurt herself or her sister. There were also questions about would we be adopting them and they didn't want to be adopted because they wanted to go home. This grew pronounced after bio-visits. One day after daycare, in front of the daycare staff, she announced she wasn't going home. Sat down and the little sister did the same way. We sat there for over an hour, me joking with the staff. I can tell you this was very uncomfortable for me the least. Now my wife thought I was being crazy at first and I should try harder to bond with them. I pointed out to my wife these behaviors grews very bad after visits with the parents. My wife finally began to see some of this behavior towards the end of the reunification. We both learned something from this I think. These situations can be very trying for you that is for sure.

I have two little guys I'm fostering and beginning the adoption process. They too went through exactly what you are going through. In our case, we had visits cancelled through court before the PC case was heard. The therapist explained it this way .. What the kids go through is considered post traumatic stress syndrome. He explained to the judge .. "imagine being in a horrible car accident in which you were almost killed. The rehab took a year and the first time (and for quite a while afterward) you get into your car you will experience flashbacks to that accident." This is what the kids experience when they go for visits .. no matter the age, they have memories of life with their birth parents and it brings on this behavior.

Thats a very intersting way to look at it. Kinda made me think a little. But then again. Say your in that car accident. Are you never supposed to get back in a car again? Or might it be better to make slow steps to going near that car...touching it....sitting in it....starting the engine....maybe taking it around the block....till finally you work through those tramas. You learn to accept them as part of your past and your present and your future....you learn to live your life inspite of that accident you have, rather than just ignore it, pretned it didn't happen or put it aside and have to deal with it all on your own later....when you finally have to get in that car again....just to be able to move on with your lfie and put it behind you and not be afriad of it. Obviously if visits are truly hurting the child....then maybe that isn't best for the child (at that time). Instead maybe much smaller steps are needed. But eventually our kids are going to have to face those tramatic events that changed their life forever. Eventually they will have to work it out for themselves. I personally would rather be there for my children along the way...helping them take those steps necessary for them to accept what happened and to come to peace with it all. Even if that means....it's harder for me along the way....which it is.

It is a very complicated issue. For their separation and grief issues it is helpful to have visits. But if the parents were abusive it can add more trauma to see them. But kids in foster care usually have a mix of both grief and abuse issues, so is it more helpful or more hurtful to have visits? The only thing for sure is that after the parents rights are terminated, the decision should be based on what is good for the child(ren). I've been hearing a lot of whining from my dd's birthgrandmother because I'm stopping most contact (after listening in on her phone calls and finding out how inappropriate she is such as blaming my daughter for being adopted by me, hinting to her that she could call her bdad, accusing her of being afraid of her bdad (as if it were really silly), etc.). The b-g'ma is upset that I'm not keeping my promise of allowing visits, but when she called to say she had gotten a plane ticket and was coming, my dd became very irritable and oppositional with me, and also declared that she wouldn't get in a car with her b-g'ma.

I think what is right for the CHILDREN gets lost in trying to be politically correct and not hurt everyone's feelings. Sometimes I think it IS best to have no more visits. I may get blasted for saying so, but the reality is does a child adopted thru foster care REALLY benefit thru open adoption? In some cases possibly, but in many cases I don't agree.

I am really new to this and just going thru my classes at this point but I just felt led to say that if I had adopted children thru foster care I don't think I would opt for open adoption. Just think these kids were taken from bparents for a reason. They were neglected or abused. The bparents lost their rights to them. I think it would hurt the children so much and keep them confused as to who their parents are now. Please don't blast me for my opinion. I just find it very hard to think my child would have to endure more hurt and continued memory triggers of the abuse or neglect. I think it would be up to you to stop these visits at any point you choose.

I agree there is a fine line where you have to decide if contact will help them and wether it will be more beneficial in the long run. Wether more good will be done than bad. Wether it's worth the cost. In situations where abuse happened I would be very cautious before continuing contact. I'd need to know that the abuse was in the past and that the parent felt remorse for what he/she had done. I would NEVER allow a situation where my child continued to feel intimidated by the birthparent or birthfamily. Or where the birthfamily denied the abuse happened and tired to minimize it. The child deserves to know that what happened to him/her was real and that it was wrong. I also agree that the degree of contact should continually be re-considered based on the needs of the child. If the birthparents are acting inappropriately or hurting the child in some way, I have no problem with taking a break for a while or discontinuing direct contact with the child until they can act appropriately. We've had to do this several times in the past and I don't regret it one bit. Thankfully the situation has always improved and we were able to ressume contact. So what I guess I'm trying to say is that while I believe continued contact CAN help the child, I also believe it CAN hurt the child and contact must always be based on what is in the best interest of the child at that moment (weighing the benefits against the negatives to see what is best at the moment.)

Obviously open adoption needs to be determined on a case-by-case basis, particularly when one adopts from foster care. There will probably ALWAYS be some degree of 'acting out' after visits as any visit will continue to bring up memories and introduce new - and old! - issues for the family to work through. If the bio parents are not talking in appropriate ways, if there is triangulation going on, if there is an 'us vs. them' mentality(either with the bio family or the adoptive family), then one needs to make adjustments. Having candid discussions between bio parents, adoptive parents and kids all in the same room can sometimes help to get everything on the table so the kids aren't coming to erroneous conclusions based on something that one parent or the other said.One situation that we were involved with the bio parent would say things like, 'I'm going to get a job, and bring all your sibs and you home to live with me', to a child who was in long-term foster care. Bio mom was not offerred the option of reunification as she was unable to get and keep a job, couldn't parent the number of children, had alcohol issues, etc. This was counterproductive for the child she was visiting with and that child requested no more visits. Sadly, the adults in charge were unable to figure this out without the child having to state the obvious. Some lessons to walk away with here are 1) pay attention to conversations during visits, 2) talk with the child about the visits, 3) be willing to be proactive on behalf of the child without placing the responsibility on him/her to determine what is best.The thing to try to determine is if the child is going through a healing process while doing the visits, or if new injuries are occuring. (emotional injuries, not physical) If the process is painful but healing, that's one thing. If the process is just adding insult to injury that's another. The $64,000 question is, how to figure that out at the time! So...if you all get the answer and have a formula for figuring this out, be sure to post!

I agree with all the above statements - esp. the one that states that TPR in foster care happens for very good reasons, usually ones that mean that there should be NO contact at all. The hard part is, the abuse that you know about at adoption is very often the tip of the iceburg, as the kids usually want what they know (which is b-parents) because, even in foster care and/or after adoption, they are not ready to fully trust anyone. BTW, we were informed about neglect and potential mild abuse with our kids. We did not find out for several years that much worse happened - not the SW's fault, the kids didn't tell & the bparents sure as heck were not going to confess. I have a sibling group of 4 kids with a closed adoption from f-care, and it took more than 3 years before the stories of what really happened to them began to trickle out. We unknowingly had visits with a 1/2 sib who had abused one of my kids - that kid was afraid to tell when in f-care because she wanted to be reunited with b-parents. (She never told b-parents either). In addition, b-dad left her alone with other drug-abusing adult males when she was very young - you can imagine the rest. She was too traumatized to trust us for many years with this info, and it came about not because of anything that happened to her, but because her older sister started dating & telling her about the activities on her dates during the same week that the 1/2-sib informed us that he wanted to come visit our home, which caused her to freak out & finally tell us what happened. Not only that, even with all this (and much more) abuse, she still wants contact with b-parents (even after TPR, 5 years of a stable adopted home life where she can tell us everything & 1.5 years of intense therapy recently [they had a lot of therapy in f-care & post-adopt, but did not talk openly then & no one knew]) - but this is absolutely not in her best interests, as b-mom was also abusive and neglectful. The other issue (at least with sibs) is that they often each have very different experiences in the same household, because bparents who are abusive/neglectful are also often not very fair - e.g, they pic favorites whom they never hurt, and scapegoats, who get all the abuse, or even a spectrum that goes back & forth, and those roles are different for each kid/parent relationship. The main idea being, there is no consistency in anything. So my point - you may not (and most likely will not) know as much as you think at the time you are making the adoption agreement for openness. To my mind, it is much easier to start w/closed adoption & then evaluate as time progresses, than to start open & then try to close it later due to issues that you become aware of, because by then your child may totally object, even when what you are doing is totally in their best interests. The decision to go open in f-care also needs a lot of time for you to build up your kids to where they really, truly trust you. The first year is a honeymoon, and it will seem like they do trust, but only time will tell (and especially, adolescence, as this is when they truly hit the age where they start to evaluate what really happened in their lives).:3d:

The problem comes with the fact that sometimes it is the children (talking about older ones here) who WANT the contact. My son is 15, so I don't get to make that choice, even with full adoption. He still wants and has access to the bios. *I* would think he'd want to cut them off after everything they did to him - but he is intensely loyal, and still loves them very much. This has been the hardest thing to wrap my head around, and and it turns out it is VERY typical - lots (most?) kids taken away from their abusive and neglectful birth families feel the same way. Obviously, there are times that we as the parents have to say "no, this isn't good for you" - but just thought I'd let you know this whole twist on the issue. When I was at your stage in this process, I really believed they'd just be happy to get away.

Just wanted to say that I agree with Bug-n-bears mommy on this issue.

For StevesTwin - why do they still have the choice? Is the SW not backing you up on cutting off contact? If the parents were TPR'd, doesn't that cover the fact that it is closed (or did the judge let the kids have a say in this?) It seems strange that if the home was abusive, etc, and rights were TPR'd for cause, that the judge/SW's would allow contact after TPR. If the kid has email, etc, that is allowing contact, it seems that the bparents continuing to respond to calls/emails could be reported to the court system. I also agree that it is VERY typical for the kids to show loyalty and want contact, but it doesn't mean they should get it - this is what TPR is all about (protecting the kids from more abuse). The idea is to help them heal in a safe environment - if bio home was safe, they'd still be there. With our teens (who knew & had contact with bparents until TPR at ages 8 thru 13), they wanted the contact, but the SW's and we have told them thru the years that legally, their bparent has no right to be in contact with the kids & it is a violation of the law for their bparents to initiate or respond to any contact until the kids turn 18. We recently had a bparent try for contact via myspace. Our 17 year old (who desperately wants contact) cannot actually handle it in her current emotional state, and we notified police in both places (bparent home & our home) - not to mention that our younger kids are not ready to deal with this either. There is no arrest (I did not ask for one), but we are documenting the attempt on advice of our lawyer, and have been told to notify the court.

I suspect the reason so many kids that have been abused are still loyal to their bio-parents is largely related to the 'biology' part of the species. We're hardwired to live our lifes in families and with our parents from day one. What I find interseting are babies that have been removed from mothers from day 1. I wonder what they feel as they get older, especially if they are never told unless the physical differences between foster parents and them is to great to not tell them. Of course, we'd probably tell children their history when we felt they were at an age they could deal with those issues.

We have had our kids pretty much from day one, adn could EASILY get away with never telling them that they are adopted. But, we never want them to feel like it is a secret they are not entitled to know about. Because of this (and the fact that we have a HUGE family and nobody could keep their mouth shut if we wanted them to) adoption will never be a word that is not part of our vocabulary. They will just always know. Now they might now know all the gritty details until we feel they are ready and they ask, but they will always know that they were adopted. We think it is healthier that way. I also speak from family experience...my 9 year old neice is not biologically my brother's daughter. While they were separated for a time my SIL got pregnant. To this day they have not told her that my brother is biologically not her father. The sad thing is that everyone in the family knows...even all the other kids...but they have left her in the dark because they are scared to tell her. It is just too sad for me.