When is the character formed by?????

My son was six when I got him and he has changed a lot in two years, but it's not just love and patience, it was research on my part, and attachment parenting and counseling all together that have helped. Love alone does not cure everything. I got coustody of a sister when she was 16. She is still not the adult I would like her to be (she is 28 now) but she is a long ways from what she was when I got her. When I got her at 16 she cared about only herself and gave no thought to the future. She had been not bothering to go to school, drugs, sex and drinking were part of her life. By the time she left our home, she was getting good grades in school and had quit drugs and drinking and sleeping around. Now, outside of our home she went back to some drinking and sleeping around. However, now she has two kids, she is divorced and while she would still like the world to owe her a living and she still things she and her kids are the center of the universe, she is working and taking care of her kids. She loves those kids and is trying hard to be a good parent. She had to make some mistakes and learn from them and to be honest she is still learning. My son is 8 and is doing better than he was, but he still has Reactive attachment disorder and it will take some time before all the effects of his first years go away, if ever. However, I now believe he will become a productive member of society. As for moral faults, I have yet to meet anyone of any age who has none. I would suggest doing a lot of reading about older child adoption. There are some great books out there. Look for books by Nancy Thomas, Gregory Keck, Deborah Gray, Katherine hughes, Katherine Leslie. There are more, but those are the ones I can see on my bookshelf from here, I know have some in the other room. Others can give you more to read and there are websites you can check out too. Just reading on the special needs boards will give you some insight.

My son was eight years old when he and his younger sisters (they were age 4) came to live with me. They are not the same children they were 6 years ago. I think their personalities haven't really changed much. K-1 is still the drama queen, K-2 is still a drama queen, and V is still a drama king. But what has changed is how they react to situations. They are much calmer than they were and have learned to think (some) things through before acting on them. I believe that when adopting an older child the most important thing you can do is educate yourself. Read books, blogs and anything else you can get your hands on. Love is NOT enough. (I used to belive that, too) You really have to be proactive. You really don't want to put yourself in the position of having to react to a situation, you have to be prepared for any and everything. I always recommend this blog ([url=http://thebodiebunch.blogspot.com/]The Bodie Bunch[/url]) for parents who are thinking about adopting older children. Kathy

Love will not be enough. Change can occur at anytime, but character, I think that happens very early Most of my kids were adopted at 8 or older. All had attachment disorder in varying degrees. There has been change, however, there are many things that didn't change(though I think they will change more by the time they are 30). Most are now attached. Before adopting an older child, you need to be very familiar with attachment disorder and with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

First, I want to say that love does NOT cure all. I don't say that to be mean. It just doesn't. Emotionally scars can be too deep and too traumatic to be cured. But love really does help. I was placed with my adoptive family at 7.5 years old and my older bio sister was placed with me at almost 9 years old. As an older child placement you can imagine the abuse, neglect, addictions (alcohol in my family case), on welfare, etc that was endured prior to removal from my bio family. I came from a long line of people who were uneducated and poor. Most did not even graduate from college. I completely believe that my character changed based on my adoption. My life is very different from what I pictured it would be if I had not been adopted. I went to college. I am a single working mom. My views in life, ethics, and morals are very similar to those in my adoptive family. But I don't know if I am the norm or not in older child adoptions. Samantha

I would question the one article about character being formed by age three...were there any interventions (i.e. therapy?) to help any of the children?I have heard that personality is formed by age 5 or 7 or somewhere in there......just my opinion, I do believe that to be true. Having said that, there are still some opportunities to change character and behaviors. From a physiological point of view, the brain hasn't stopped growing yet at those ages - there are some things that still can be learned/unlearned/changed, etc. The caveat is that not all can be changed - briefly, there are windows of development for certain parts of the brain, certain "skills" - some can be learned later (the original developmental window for that skill, while important, can be reopened later so to speak) and some cannot - if one misses the window for development, it's gone. I do not know which "skills" fall into which category - don't know if scientists have even discerned that yet. I definitely don't agree that everything must be done by age 5 or age 7 or a child is doomed for the rest of his/her life....just my humble parental opinion. My favorite is Dr. Bruce Perry. [URL="http://www.childtrauma.org"]Welcome to ChildTrauma Academy :::::::::::[/URL]. He has done some incredible research on the effects of trauma and neglect on the developing brain & nervous system.Fran :coffee:

Honestly I have seen adults change, but not often and usually it takes something big to change them! As for children, well, every one is different. I have seen children from good families who had every opportunity go off the deep end and get into drugs and alcohol. I have seen kids from terrible histories go on to make something of themselves. I think a lot depends on what supports the child finds and thier own personality, whether they have a victim mentality or a fighting one. My own opinion, supported by absolutely nothing but my own experience is that if the child can learn and feel empathy for others there is hope. Some kids seem to have an easier time learning it than others. Some children handle the trauma of whatever happened in thier lives to cause them to be in social services (the old fairy tale of a child whose loving parents died suddenly in a car accident or something is rarely the case, it's usually abuse and/or neglect) If a child handles the trauma by closing themselves off, then they can be helped only if they want to be. If they handle it by becoming angry, they can learn different if they have help. If the child does not want to change and has been so damaged that they no longer allow themselves to feel any real emotion then they might not be able to change. It's all going to depend on the individual child.

From my personal experience and observations (NOT scientific!) I think that the child's character is formed before age 7. That does not mean that child cannot change and grow and learn new ways of doing things, but if you think about it, we spend the preschool years teaching a child the difference between right and wrong, how to share, how to treat a friend, how to interact with other people, what it means to be a citizen in the world and a family member. When I got my child at age 7, she had already been trained to steal, to lie, to gamble. She was not taught that these things were wrong. The philosophy that her family actively taught her was to get what you can, look for other peoples' weaknesses and exploit them. So that is how she operates. She had been activity taught and reinforced that criminal activity is a good thing. After all, if you are going to survive by your cute little 5 year old picking pockets and shoplifting, you are not going to tell her, "Now, sweetie! Stealing is wrong and we are only doing it because we have to." No, you are going to praise her to the hilt when she does it, and that is how she learned that stealing is awesome and if you are really good at it, that means you are a better person than someone who cannot do it. How do I, as her new parent, undo all that early learning? I have worked hard to undo as much of this as I can and teach her a different moral standard to live by. But, I think all I have done is helped her really to be a better con artist, and be able to present herself in a more socially acceptable way when she wants to. She knows better how to play the game and come across as an upstanding citizen. Deep down she is still looking out for numero uno, does not really have empathy for others, has a strong need for control, and is extremely manipulative. I had a 7 year old foster daughter who flat out rejected, "treat other people the way you want to be treated." "That's not the rule in my family," she would scream at me! "My mom says I don't have to!" This would be weakness where she came from. Certainly, her bio mom never treated her that way! And if she accepted that some people did treat their children the way they would like to be treated, what did that say about her relationship with her mother, and about her own worth? Too much for her to handle, so she had to reject it. My 3 year old foster daughter was exposed to a similar environment, but was more flexible and ready to adapt. She had a lot of issues, but I think had I had enough time with her I could have taught her to be a good citizen without having to try to get her to unlearn all the bad stuff first. She would glow when I would tell her, "Good job!" or "What a good helper you are!" That is something you can work with. My personal philosophy is that a person's basic moral code and way of engaging with the world is pretty well set by age 6. That said, we can all grow and change. Even as adults. But it's like that old joke, "How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?" The person truly does have to want to change, regardless of their age. There is not enough love in the world to transform a child who cannot let that love in!

Love is about 10th on the list for what a traumatized child needs most in the beginning IMHO. Remember, that most of the abuse and neglect came with the "I love you" tag attached. Love will be interpruted differently by these kids. You need to earn their trust, before they'll accept your love or let themselves be vulnerable around you. And it's a process that may cycle repeatedly forever. Trust will not come easy OR cheap, and you cannot truly love someone who you do not fully trust.I think it's the instinct for the moral code that is set....my dd was also manipulative and selfish when she came to us at age 4, however, she has learned alternatives...and she is motivated by success, so I had to make every attempt to manipulate (and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE) a complete failure and diaster, and then reteach her and role play how it should have gone...basically make the better behavior a hugely rewarded success, while making sure the manipulations were a massive failure. Her first instinct is to manipulate, but she will now stop and reconsider her options. When she's stressed or whatever though, she will revert to her instincts.I used the "winter coat/clothes/sled from alaska" story about someone moving to phoenix and still wearing that winter coat...we talked about how some tools that WERE neccessary to survive in alaska, would actually be harmful to a person in phoenix, or slow them down, make life harder etc.... Once I talked about that, I could say..."Is this the best tool for the job?" Or I'll say "Let's try that again, this time use a better tool"

I just wanted to reiterate what the others are saying. You dont have to go far in blog land to find heartfelt posts from mothers who DESPERATELY love their children but whose kids are making awful choices. The VAST majority of those kids (in those circumstances) were adopted as older children. To imply that loves cures all means that those of us with kids with special needs (behavioral, emotional, mental ) that result in exceptional behaviors (sometimes, ok often ;) , not for the good) dont love our kids. And you know what?? Nothing could be FURTHER from the truth -- its because we love our kids we stick it out, we advocate, we fight for resources, we stick with it, and sometimes place our children in another home-environment that can provide for them more safely. But some things, sometimes, a child can't be "healed" or fixed or made "normal" by the general public's definition - and that doesn't mean we have failed.

Very well put, Jen. I had a terribly sad outcome after 2 exhausting and scary years of taking in relative teenage boy. But my foster kids, who we are expecting to adopt, I have seen some really wonderful things from. One of them I had been told at age 10 did not seem to have a conscience. But the person trying to parent was only about the 12th fp, and was policing the kid more than attempting to show affection and help heal. The books mentioned earlier were really helpful. Love and patience are critical, you shouldn't attempt this without being a person who has lots of that to give. But that is only the foundation. Add to that willingness to learn entirely new ways to parent, to reach out to many resources, to be embarassed in public when your precious child acts out and you would love to tear that butt up but you know you can't. It's really hard in a different way. For me... so far....it's been a tremendous job that has been unbelievably rewarding. All the while remembering my young relative out there somewhere misbehaving, procreating, and headed eventually for prison or a mental institution. Yet we loved him deeply, prayed for him continuously, advocated for him tirelessly, went through hell and high water for him. It just wasn't enough to undo all that had been done, or to prevent mental illness, or to get him to understand the importance of treatment for mental illness, job training, etc. Please don't be scared off from older foster kids. Learn, learn, learn, and then help in whatever way you feel compelled. They desperately need your help in whatever capacity you can give.

Wow, there have been some really good posts on this thread. All I have to say is that I'm not exactly sure what "character" is, or how some scientist thinks they can define it in a 3 year old, but that our 14-year old acts, thinks, and behaves much differently than she did 5 years ago when she moved in with us. She still makes mistakes and her anger still flares easily, but she sees different values in life and is working to make herself successful and happy. Seems like her character changed to me, and changed drastically!