Can you be a liberal catholic?

That is ABSOLUTELY correct. That is ABSOLUTELY correct. Wrong. Only victims and/or their families can HIDE abuse. If someone goes into a police station and says "_____ sexually abused my child", that person is arrested. Wrong again. The Catholic church recommends and SUPPORTS the imprisonment of priests who violate civil law (including sexual offenders). Of the priests who have been actually found guilty and aren't just part of a smear campaign against the church, all were defrocked and imprisoned. The Catholic Church can NOT cover up an incident where a family goes to the police station and states their child was abused by a priest. The civil law must be obeyed. The priest would be arrested, fingerprinted, and there would be a trial. This has happened in cases where a family went to police and stated their child was sexually assaulted by a priest. The victims who are coming forward NOW in sexual abuse claims against priests are stating they were victimized decades earlier. This is a problem unique to the Catholic church. Foster parents, camp counselors, teachers, etc..who sexually abuse children have cases brought up against them right away. Those kids don't take 30 years to come forward. But when it comes to the Catholic Church (and hopes of a quick financial hush money settlement), victims are coming out of the woodwork. What sets the accusers of priests apart from other sex abuse claimants? The John Jay study commissioned by the U.S. bishops revealed that the highest percentage of accusers of Catholic priests came forward not in the 1960s to 1980s when the abuse was claimed to have occurred, but between 2002 and 2004 when Catholic dioceses entered "blanket" settlements. Weird, eh? It's funny how money can jog your memory. Crick, do you actually believe that out of the thousands and thousands of Catholic priests all over the world, that ALL were involved in some kind of coverup? For every bad priest, there are a thousand good ones who live every day with a scandal that they weren't part of. Father Corappi was spit on at the airport when he came to teach a catechism course. He never abused anyone. There are thousands of Father Corapi's out there who work day and night to do the right thing. Maybe we should hang them all. Isn't that what happens when there is a mob mentality going on? Even if we were to believe that every accused priest who was NOT found guilty is, in fact, guilty, you're still looking at a very small fragment when you look at sex abuse on a wide scale. For every priest who abused a child, thousands were abused by their parents. It doesn't make it right in either case. But the way the media handles the story, you would think it was every priest in the US. Umm..I'm not the one who decides who is Catholic and who is not. If you are following the Catholic Canon Law, you're Catholic. If you are NOT following the Catholic Canon Law, then you are NOT Catholic. You can't be Catholic and pro-choice. It's canon law. ABOUT THE POPE: The media is focused on two incidents: In the 1980's, a priest who was accused, ARRESTED, and disciplined, requested to leave the priesthood. His diocese submitted the paperwork. Cardinal Ratzinger (he wasn't pope yet), stated that the diocese should provide him with as much pastoral care as possible while awaiting their decision. It had nothing to do with hiding abuse. The priest had already been convicted. The media frenzy is focusing on the fact that he wasn't defrocked immediately upon conviction. In Ratzinger's letter, he stated that all requests to leave the priesthood have to be considered carefully in regard to the universal church. And the fact that the priest could have chosen to be reassigned to duties that would not put him in contact with children. Cardinal Ratzinger wanted all those possibilities examined before giving consent. I guess he should be shot for taking his time in deciding the fate of his fellow priest. Definately a cover up of abuse. Especially considering the public trial. AND..also in the 1980 when he was archbishop of Munich, Ratzinger approved the transfer of a German priest and sex offender for therapy. The priest had not been charge or convicted of any crime in any German court. The priest was allowed to return to the ministry and was accused of molesting more children. However, Cardinal Ratzinger was not aware that the priest returned to pastoral duties because the move was approved by Vicar General Gerhard Gruber-not Ratzinger. Again, no cover up. The final slam against Ratzinger (he wasn't Pope yet), was a Michigan case where a priest was accused of molesting deaf children decades before. Despite the fact that the statute of limitations had run out on a civil prosecution, the BISHOP of the archdiocese put the priest on a church trial. The priest, who was terminally ill, requested that Rome cancel the trial in exchange for him pleading guilty and being punished by no longer being allowed to perform his priestly duties. Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, accepted the guilty plea and the church trial was stopped. The priest was moved to a private monastary until his death. It sures sounds like a scandalous cover up to me when the church is trying sex offenders in a church court because the civil statute of limitations has run out. What was the bishop thinking? He was definately covering up something. Is the Pope perfect? No. He's human. Just like you. In fact, the entire Catholic Church is made up of human beings. Is the Pope infallible? No. But he can make an infallible statement regarding the interpretation of canon law.

Kat-LWhat I get from your post...1. It's the victim's fault for not reporting to the POLICE. That as long as the accused is not arrested in civil law, he (any abuser) remains a Catholic. It's not the abuse or violation of the SACRED laws that make him not Catholic any longer, it's merely whether or not he's arrested and tried in the court of law. Considering you are a foster parent and child advocate, I'm truly disappointed that you'd blame the victims for their abuse and consider them at fault. Which is definitely what your post sounds like, even if that's not what you mean. Perhaps there are people who are making it up and trying to capitalize on the scandal, but there's enough there to know it's not about money or "woodwork", imo. 2. You can dance all you want around your Pope's hiding and his handling of things but he still held a sex abuser's life at more value than an innocent child. Somehow I don't think God will like that much and bet he'll consider that mighty UN-Catholic of him. (I understand you have a different view than the ones reported and are continuing to be reported)3. I never said all priests do this and that's not a valid rebuttal because it has nothing to do with the ones that DID abuse these children. I appreciate that you love your church and will defend it at all costs. However, it is saddening to realize at whose cost that really is and to see you admonishing "sinners" on this board when as you've already said...it's not you who decides anything. There are many who would disagree that it's canon law, but obviously I'm not going to debate that one as I'm not Catholic and it's not my argument. (I don't have anything vested in that)

Hi Crick, I'm glad you have commented. Your argument, however, contains a non-sequitur - actually a couple of them. Just because there are a handful of very bad priests and incompetent bishops who allowed the abuse to continue - something almost all Catholics are ashamed off, including myself - doesn't mean that the church condones it. And even if you are right and it can be somehow argued that the church does or has, it doesn't mean - logically speaking - that it is wrong on other issues. Anyway, away from the internal inconsistencies in your argument and back to your point about the abuse, in a [URL="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20100319_church-ireland_en.html"]recent letter to Ireland[/URL], the Pope apologized to victims of abuse in that country and strongly rebuked pedophile priests and incompetent bishops. I recommend reading it for an indication of what the pope and the church actually thinks about the abuse. In the pope's words: 6. To the victims of abuse and their families

You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry. I know that nothing can undo the wrong you have endured. Your trust has been betrayed and your dignity has been violated. Many of you found that, when you were courageous enough to speak of what happened to you, no one would listen. Those of you who were abused in residential institutions must have felt that there was no escape from your sufferings. It is understandable that you find it hard to forgive or be reconciled with the Church. In her name, I openly express the shame and remorse that we all feel. ... 11. To my brother bishops

It cannot be denied that some of you and your predecessors failed, at times grievously, to apply the long-established norms of canon law to the crime of child abuse. Serious mistakes were made in responding to allegations. I recognize how difficult it was to grasp the extent and complexity of the problem, to obtain reliable information and to make the right decisions in the light of conflicting expert advice. Nevertheless, it must be admitted that grave errors of judgement were made and failures of leadership occurred. All this has seriously undermined your credibility and effectiveness.

Peace.

Hi Crick, Honestly, I don't think that's what Kat-L was trying to say. And I think if you try to read her comments in good faith you'll see that. I'm not sure that's right either and while I'd be happy to here when and how exactly the Pope did just that, I'm not sure that I want to go into it here. I doubt that this is the appropriate forum for this conversation - this is, as I understand it, and perhaps I'm wrong, a forum for Catholics who have or are hoping to adopt. I don't know that flaming is necessary or desirable. I'm not sure that its entirely fair for an administrator of this site to emotionally vent at a commentator as if she were to blame for the sex abuse crisis simply because she voiced a particular view about what it is to be Catholic.Kat-L might have been emotive in her language but she didn't judge anyone to be a sinner except, perhaps, in the case where someone materially cooperates in procuring an abortion. In this case, Kat-L did little more than to accurately point out that such a person is automatically excommunicated under canon law. This applies - even if they continue going to mass on Sundays and claim to be members of the church in good standing - until they make a sincere confession. Kat-L didn't make this up. It's actually part of the church's laws governing membership. Surely Kat-L should have the right to voice her views about what she considers to be the membership criteria for being Catholic without being subjected to this kind of personal attack? Peace.

Surely ALL of us should have a right to their own voice without being considered as having JUDGED anyone. I said what I said with no anger - - but with strong conviction. I judge no one. I don't lead a perfect life and I don't hide it. I'll go out on a limb here and assume that none of this on this board is perfect spiritually. But I've come to my own views on what it means to ME to be a Catholic thru years of religious training in Catholic schools, etc. Again -- I judge no one. I did take my head out of the sand at some point and realize that people choose their religious views for a number of reasons. It really helped me to pull my head out of the sand when I learned of the decades (maybe centuries) of religious officials sexually abusing children and the cover up that ensued. Yes, the church covered it up. Anyone who doesn't see that, well, don't let me judge. Some spiritual beliefs just don't make any sense to me at all (i.e., the Jim Jones followers, etc.). Many use religion as a scapegoat. But every individual had (in Jim Jones followers case) and still has a right to decide for themselves. I've got a hard enough time keeping my own relationship right with my higher power of choice. I am much more spiritual than I am Catholic -- and for that I'm proud. But I attend a Catholic church, receive the sacraments (gasp), teach the Catholic faith to my children. They are altar servers and valued members of our church family (as are my husband and I). I also value life enough to have adopted 4 children in addition to the 4 I gave birth to. That doesn't give me the right to tell another woman what to do with her own body -- THUS the "pro choice" stand. I value those that are black, white, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, etc. I am open and excited to talk to others about how they came to decide their purpose in life -- whether it's hell or heaven or karma or life after death, or that you just plain die and that's the end of it. Again, I judge no one. Anyone that knows me on these boards knows that about me. From what I can see to the responses to my post -- I hear an awful lot of excuse-making and judgement. Crick makes excellent points (in my view -- you don't have to share it). Honestly, I don't care if you agree with me. I get more excited about those who don't agree with me. It makes life very interesting. I'll state it again -- you be the kind of Catholic you feel is best for your life -- you have that right. How a statement like that is perceived as "judgmental" is absolutely astounding to me.

Can a Catholic be liberal? Yes they can. When voting I take issues of social justice into consideration as well as foreign policy, economics, environmental policies etc. You will find that catholics will have very differing views on may subjects. With a few exceptions such as abortion and capitol punishment. Talk to your priest or attend RCIA classes. I suggest reading some Scott Hahn, Rome Sweat Home is a great book for someone considering conversion.

Crick, I think it is wrong that a forum administrator is hijacking a thread and making accusations about a church on a board created for them to discuss their faith and adoption issues within their faith. And further more your accusations were snide and based on headlines and not very well thought out. You came across very ignorant and lowered the credibility of adoption.com I believe you owe the people on this board an apology particularly Kat-L!

Let me get this straight - "Crick" owes an apology but those of you who judge whether others are deemed appropriately Catholic can say whatever you want. Unbelievable. It's getting more and more clear why so many Catholics leave the church. Judgers of men . . . hmmm, wonder what Christ would think about that?! Men (caucasian men, to be more precise) wrote the tenets of the church. Men are not infallable. Live your own life as the kind of Catholic you want to be. You certainly have the right. Yes, my words are strong. In response to some very harsh words by others. Sorry, Crick, if I've gone overboard. I just couldn't keep my mouth shut on this one.

Kansas - You believe it is wrong for me to have opinions and I believe it's wrong for innocent children to be molested. I believe also it's wrong for one person to decide what is right for all. If that's "snide", so be it. To each her own...:)Josie - Thanks!

Me, too. And protestants are no exception. Here's a story of hidden abuse that appeared in CNN's national news today [URL="http://www.10news.com/news/23512799/detail.html"]Lawsuit: Church Kept Sex Predator Hire Under Wraps - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego[/URL] Below is a list of 835 US ministers CONVICTED (not just accused) of sexually abusing children over the last 12 years-including one who pastored for 35 years before being prosecuted. Everyone of these ministers abused children in THIS country. Studies published by CNN show that only 75% of ministers are ever prosecuted and convicted. Which means there were probably more that 1043 ministers accused of abuse in the last decade but hundreds and hundreds were never brought to justice. WHY, CRICK? Why are these protestant ministers allowed to abuse children and get away with it? You know what I think? I think it means that all protestant churches are "bad" :rolleyes: . They are all hiding this abuse. After all, did you hear about these hundreds and hundreds of unprosecuted ministers on the news? Does that seem fair to you, as a non-catholic christian? [URL="http://www.reformation.com/"]Sexual Abuse of Children by Protestant Ministers[/URL]

Enough.Take the jabs to PM and get the thread back on track - I don't want to have to take action over this, but I will.For the record - in case any one might wondering - that warning goes to Crick too (who is participating here as a MEMBER not an administrator.)Final warning - get back to the intent of the thread (if it's even possible) or don't post.

I never said this was a Catholic issue as a whole.

This isn't so much Catholic as Christian in general but remember that old adage, Satan's biggest victory in the 20th century is convincing people he doesn't exist (or hell doesn't exist)? I don't think that's true. I think his biggest victory is convincing people that God loves them so much that He would never send them to hell- even though that belief goes against everything Jesus taught regarding life after death, even though Jesus spoke more often of Hell than of heaven, even though the bible is filled with examples of how God is "just". Thomas Jefferson said "I shudder for humanity when I think that God is just". Every person on this earth should shudder at that thought. Regardless of whether you're liberal or conservative, jewish or christian, we all have a lot to answer for. And I don't think anyone ever gives that much thought. And as people who believe in God, you would think that day of standing before God would be something that we all think about on a daily basis. I know from losing Angel that none of us are guaranteed a 100 years. We're not guaranteed anything. You could choke to death on a carrot while sitting at your desk this afternoon. When you're called, you go. We're not guaranteed an opportunity to make things right. We're not guaranteed anything. We just need to live knowing that when we see God, we need to be able to explain ourselves, our actions, etc. And I know that Catholics, in particular, are held to a higher standard because we are taught the rules of our faith as we grow up and receive the sacraments. Our church spells out the rules so there is no gray area that there might be in another bible based church where interpretation of laws/truths/beliefs comes from a person rather than a church whole. So, when we give account, we don't have the opportunity to say "But I didn't know that was wrong". It's the responsiblity of Catholic parents, Catholic priests and the Church as a whole to educate Catholics to know the rules so that they are never lost on that final day.So, a protestant christian can say to God "But I didn't know abortion was murder. The Methodist church I belonged to didn't call that a sin". And the person really DIDN'T know. So how can God judge that person guilty of murder when the person had no idea it was murder? When the person's own church said it was okay? But Catholics can't stand before God and say "But I didn't know abortion was murder" or "I didn't know abortion was so wrong" because we DO know.

No, opinions are fine. Statements of fact are fine. Putting words into people mouth and taking personal attacks at people putting into question their fitness as a foster parent and child advocate because they are Catholic is mean spirited. I don't know a single Catholic that is not saddened and doesn't have pain from the molestation cases. It has angered all of us. However, If we believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church we understand that the the molestation cases is a result of man not part of the teaching of the Catholic church. The priests and anyone involved should be delt with accordingly. The Catholic church was around before these sins were committed and I guarantee that it will be around long after anyone on this forum will be around. So what am I doing? Praying and holding tight to my faith and trying to be part of the solution by participating in organizations within the church and the community that helps to protect all of God's children. If you can not be tolerant of the catholic faith and our beliefs and feel that it creates a positive environment for a administrator of the forum to behave how you have, so be it. I used to love this site, it has given me a lot of insite and support with our adoption....But, when administrators have an agenda and try to hurt people on the forum it doesn't seem like a safe or healthy environment to spend my time at.

This thread is done. Total disregard of posted warnings is not going to be something we're going to allow - not now, not ever.