both parents w/schizophrenia/mental health issues?

One thing to keep in mond is that many people with schizophrenia come from loving, stable homes. There was recently a cover story on cnn.com about a 21 year old who had a full ride to Johns Hopkins and then ended up losing everything due to the onset of his schizophrenia. I believe the new movie "The Soloist" is about a similar story. I would just be aware that there may not be anything you can do to prevent him from becoming schizophrenic despite your best efforts. Just like I probably can't prevent my biological kids from developing major depressive disorder either...kwim?

Yeah, the predisposition means that he may be more likely to develop the disorder due to his genetic make up. Unfortunately, there are no hard and fast rules as to how much of it is genetically determined and how much of it is environmentally determined. I've seen people who have their first psychotic break and are from stable, upper class families and some with horribly unstable backgrounds. There are structural changes in the brains of those with schizophrenia, unfortunately it is uncertain if these structural changes are due to the illness or a by-product of it. The one thing that I will say is those with a supportive family tend to be higher functioning than those who don't.

Children can indeed get schizophrenia. This is not common but it can happen. My partner's brother had schizophrenia by age 4 and Sheila Cantor wrote an excellent book on childhood schizophrenia and she had plenty of patients, I don't know why it is said to be so extremely rare. I have just met too many kids with it without even trying, for that to be the case. But while I would not say 'extremely rare' (1 in millions) I would not say 'common' (1 in 100). Somewhere in between. I don't feel schizophrenia has much at all to do with early environment. Studies today indicate it starts well before birth. Earlier guesses about 'environment' tended to center around the fact that even with one parent with it, the occurance is low. The only explanation was thought to be that it must be environmental. But there are a number of other simple explanations and the chief one is that there are many genes, not one gene. People have various reasons for disbelief in gene studies - I think mostly people feel 'genetic disease is hopeless' but schizophrenia is only hopeless when the illness is denied and treatment is not started. I think it is mostly genetic and a number of studies have shown that when children are adopted even immediately at birth, they develop schizophrenia at a fairly predictable rate. Evidence shows it is caused by the combined action of hundreds of genes, rather than 1 or 2, so it isn't 'inherited' like blue eyes or other simple traits where we envision one dominant gene - the occurance of it may also be linked not completely to genes that are inherited from mother or father in any way, but to genes that fold over of duplicate wrong during early development once the fetus is formed. I don't think early mistreatment causes schizophrenia, though it certaintly doesn't help. Kids and adults with a chronic mental health problem need above all, trust and confidence and stable support, and they don't get that in negative situations. Poor family situations also delay diagnosis and increase the length of 'DUP' (duration of untreated psychosis) which is a key factor in how well things come out. The thing is though, 'predicting' and 'rates' are all about groups of people and general trends, not individuals. There isn't any way to tell if your individual child will get schizophrenia. Statistics are only general trends in large groups of people. That said, more children get schizophrenia when both parents have the illness, than if one parent has it or neither has it. The rate in the general population is about 1% (lifetime adjusted risk, kind of a statistic but it is helpful). When one parent has it, studies usually give a percentage of 10-14%, and when both have it, studies vary in the result because the designs of the studies are so different, but yes, the rate is higher. It still doesn't say if YOUR child will get it. My partner's brother, mother, grandmother were very severely ill with it, talk about loading the dice, and he does not have it. That said, he remains somewhat shy and reserved, and can't take a lot of stress, for example, he couldn't publish and teach and failed to get tenure. But no one would say he has schizophrenia. Still I have a great variety of friends who do have this illness - one is a professional graphics artist, one is the head of a teaching program for the local network of teaching hospitals and speaks all over the world on schizophrenia. I am SURE...the good out comes are from consistent and early treatment, as soon as symptoms started. Not everyone gets a mild case of it and some people's lives are more limited than others. It's important to have reasonable expectations and for example not pressure a kid that he must have a career as a doctor or lawyer if he has a more severe illness, but love, a decent quality of life, these can always happen. All it takes is lots of work. I think the most important thing, is to always be very hopeful and positive. Modern medicines are very good and people tend to do very, very well as long as one doesn't put off treatment - most cases (65%) these days are moderate or mild (according to another study). Being in denial or discounting symptoms is a big, big mistake. It is far better to go in and ask a psychiatrist and find out for sure. Since it will show on some of the new MRI's or PET scans that is also a possible diagnosis route. If you do at some point think you're seeing symptoms, sit down and talk very openly with the child and be very accepting and positive, 'well, good girl for telling me, those are hallucinations, there's a medicine for that, we'll get that medicine and get on about our business, we can handle this'. The thing is to not be afraid of the symptoms, whether they occur in an adult or child. I recall years ago reading that a little seven year old boy came up to his mom and sat in her lap and stared into her eyes and asked in a frightened voice, 'why are people's faces always changing?' the mother said they DON'T change and he never spoke to her again about it! Then when the symptoms later turned out to be schizophrenia as a teen and young man he could never face it or accept any treatment, so he became more and more ill and the story did not end well. Instead, say, 'Tell me son, how do they change?', and listen and thank them for telling you. Rest assured, if they tell you they see something, they are seeing it, all research indicates they do indeed see and hear what they say they see and hear! In a family where psychiatry is openly discussed, such as a family where a mom is a psychiatric nurse or dad volunteers at the local residential facility, a person might feel more comfortable sharing his symptoms. Little bits of symptoms may come and go in childhood and never occur again, or they may develop into schizophrenia. Some doctors feel early treatment at the first small signs will prevent it from ever becoming full blown, so pushing any concerns away or discounting them, is not a good idea. Talk to a psychiatrist if you have concerns - I will probably anger some by saying psychologists and GP's are not equipped, but I strongly believe this after many decades of working with schizophrenics and listening to family's accounts of how things went. Too many psychologists have said to me, 'Oh he's just troubled over xyz' or 'it's the family dynamics'. There is usually NOTHING wrong with the family dynamics. People often tend to concentrate only on the hallucinations or delusional thinking, but schizophrenia is an illness that affects the brain in other ways. Coordination, memory, planning, drive and trust are often affected. Infants who later get schizophrenia often are born with low muscle tone, though that is not a specific sign. They may have trouble reaching and grasping, they may even crawl lopsidedly or in one direction more...also not a specific sign. They may not move through the 'close the eyes and reach' to the normal grabbing stages with the eyes open. But it's usually when people look back over the years that they say...'oooh...so THAT'S why he used to do that'. Children who get schizophrenia often going from low muscle tone at birth to normal muscle tone and back again to low tone and poor posture right before they become ill. If they do get schizophrenia very young, the commonest reason for taking them to a psychiatrist is often serious sleep problems. Parents have also often told me their soon-to-be schizophrenic child disliked swings or rocking horses or any toy that moved them backward. One doctor once wrote that the commonest thing for such kids to say is, 'can we go home yet?' They may have 'temper tantrums' that don't seem to end, such as crying inconsolably for hours after a very slight disappointment. They may have 'extremes' of behavior - or seem like a regular kid one day and do strange things the next day. It can be very hard to explain one's concerns to a relative who may say, 'but that's NORMAL for a kid!' without understanding the intensity or rigidity of the behavior that you're seeing. For example, I saw a film of one kid who spent all afternoon sobbing because 'the sun came in the window and hit me in the eye!' My friend's son with schizophrenia came home at age seven, sobbing because he 'was not invited to the valentines day party'. I mean SOBBING. His poor mom stomped right up to the teacher the next day demanding to know why her son was excluded. 'WHAT PARTY?' said the teacher. The boy was NOT making it up. He had been observing the other children and misinterpreted their conversations because he had delusional thinking. Often it starts like that. Things that could be reasonable. In fact, when my friend's husband became sick (as an adult) she was CONVINCED by his accounts of the events, that everyone at work was picking on him. But as time went on the ideas got odder and odder and less likely. WHAT they get upset about, WHAT they say is happening, just depends on what's around them...an adult will complain the IRS is persecuting him, a child will say teenage mutant ninja turtles are after him, but it's the same kind of feeling, terrible fear and anxiety. The world seems to change and things don't look right, it seems like the whole world is playing tricks on you, talking about you, laughing at you, whispering about you. I once visited a play group with several schizophrenic kids and found I was beseiged by 'leaners', LOL. That's another thing I've noticed with kids who get sick. Every one of those adorable kids was leaning all over me. Some feel they do that due to low muscle tone. I just feel they want someone to lean on :) Some people say children get more visual hallucinations than adults do - I'm not sure but I know they often are less guarded about discussing it. With a kid, you often have to teach them to STOP chattering about the cats and the numbers and the ghosts and PLEASE set the table! People who aren't experiencing the symptoms usually react with either horror or boredom or they ARGUE with the person or child! Never argue, listen. You don't have to agree, if asked if you hear it or see it, you can say, 'no, I never had that, but I'd like to understand how it is for you'. DON'T argue. They ARE seeing it and feeling it. If a person tells me they fear something irrational, I use it as a chance to build some trust. So for example when one patient insisted hot tap water was 'poison', I smiled at him and ran the cold water. 'Here you are, I think you prefer it cold'. End of argument, start of trust. When a patient insisted a lunch worker was poisoning him, I said, 'Well let's just start working toward you getting your apartment, you can't sit around and be dependent on someone to make you lunch, right?' But when these things like this happen, you do have to start thinking about the accumulated impressions all around you and how things are going, and if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it's probably a duck. And the only real response is to call a psychiatrist and make an appointment. Visual hallucinations might start off as bright flashes or streaks, they're often light in a dark area or dark if the child is in a brightly lit area. Sometimes they look like flying specs or lumps. Sound hallucinations might start off sounding like a swish, clash or scraping sound. Sometimes they sound like whispers, one fellow told me his first hallucination sounded like a very faint slamming door. Hallucinations can occur in any sensory form - sometimes a person feels like they are being pushed or itchy or crawly sensations on the skin(a 'competer', like a terry cloth wrist sweat band, can lessen that). Everyone has to learn to not be distracted by hallucinations - the person with the illness as well as the family. I read one mother wrote, 'you don't REALLY thinkk that's going to get you out of setting the table, DO YOU?' and medication really helps to tame them and make them not seem so absorbing. Sometimes the voices are very mean and everyone needs a lot of support in those cases - ''dumb old mean thing''. Talking back to the hallucination calmly can help too, 'okay, okay, take it easy'. The accusations can be awful - sinfulness, the person is gay, dirty, should die...don't let it alarm you. It doesn't have anything to do with anything. It's just symptoms. It is not who the person is. It's just that brain misfiring. What their symptoms are is NOT their fault. Learning to manage them IS. Too, symptoms can increase when schedule changes pop up which stress the person. Having to make a lot of decisions and getting a lot of pressure tends to make the symptoms worse too. Many people will have no noticeable symptoms in childhood, some will have a few and then none again til adulthood. It's thought that growth of the brain 'uncovers' the defects in the growth of the nerve cells at key periods of fast growth in life. The disease may start with depression, with hallucinations or with a period of very subtle odd thinking and ideas. Some teens and young adults turn to street drugs or alcohol when they start to become ill - they don't know what to do and they may not feel comfortable discussing how they feel or asking for psychiatric help. Often they don't realize they're becoming ill at all. As one patient told me, 'It's hard to bite your own teeth, ya know'. The brain just is not good at telling when the brain is ill. And please...do not listen to people who say children can't get mental illness. They can and they do. The key with schizophrenia is giving the child or adult that message right from the start - we're going to handle this thing.

Your wording makes complete sense to me, and it's a question that worried me seriously for years.... to the point of getting a psych degree searching for the answer-- and I am not a psychologist and do not work in the mental health field-- just a concerned mama trying to figure some things out. What I learned about genetic predisposition with mental issues essentially boils down to this..... your genetics determine a "window of possibilities" of who you may become..... your nurture-- your way of being raised, cared for, taught, disciplined, determines where in that window you will end up. So, your child may have a higher likelihood of developing schizophrenia, but you being aware of and prepared for that will have you knowledgeable if it does happen and a far better outcome for your child. Look up NAMI online, there are support groups and informational meetings everywhere to help people and families learn how to deal with a loved one's mental illness, and they will be a world of information available to you. Hope that helps!

I know, that is what was taught for years. I no longer believe it, to be perfectly honest. CNV researchers say they will raise the genetic factors to 90% or more of the risk within a few years, and that eventually, they will have the genetic risk at 100%, they say they expect this based on what they see now. After being around kids and families with the disorder for decades, I think there is nothing anyone can do to a kid to 'make him schizophrenic'. A lot of other things, yes, but not that. I see schizophrenic kids in great families; even Freud, who was first a neurologist, said his complex 'talking cure' methods were useless for this illness. An MRI shows the brain cells dying (for example, the cells around hearing wink out one by one and thenn the 'hearing voices' starts within a few weeks). The researchers at UCLA took a bunch of kids at risk (1 and 2 parents) and kept doing MRI's for months...the story goes that they sat and read the MRI's and cried, because 'it looks like a forest fire'. The brain cells simply start winking out, one after another, and within a few weeks, the kids start hearing voices, seeing things and eventually other symptoms. Now, opinion is divided as to how often the brain changes continue, and how often they stabilize, and doctors can look at MRI's, see which parts of the brain are most affected, and predict a person's symptoms and severity just by looking at the MRI, with 93% accuracy. In 1735, Charcot noted while doing autopsies that the brain structure was changed by this disease (and he was looking before medications so saw much worse cases). He saw wrinkles becoming more shallow, ventricles widening. That means brain tissue loss. We are talking up to 8-10% brain tissue loss - yes loss. There is no inflammation, no scarring, the brain cells just wink out, one after the other. And not in places in the brain where other areas can be recruited. The treatment of the disease doesn't mean controlling symptoms, it means protecting the nerve cells into the future to prevent more injury, and it means teaching people how to manage the illness and make darn sure it doesn't disrupt their life. A lot of other bad things, but not that. And I'm sure people can make it worse by not dealing with it (duration untreated is a very well proven indicator of outcome) or by treating the child badly.

I realize this is an older thread, but in hope that the OP is still actively looking for hope, I have a story. A very good friend of mine had his schizophrenic break in his second year of law school. No one in his family knew of any person in the family having the illness before his diagnosis. He had to leave school for 6 months while he educated himself about the illness and found the right combination of medicines to control his symptoms. Today he is married, has his own family, and is a very successful assistant district attorney in the federal court system. I just wanted to say, even though your child's parents may or may not have the genetic trait for schizophrenia, there is no guarantee that your son will become schizophrenic. Regardless, even if your child ever shows any symptoms of the illness, it does not limit what he can have and do with his life. Through my work as a nurse, I have met many persons with schizophrenia. Most are functioning very well in their day to day lives. They are very aware of their symptoms and use varying means of controlling their reactions to the symptoms. The ones that aren't doing so well are primarily those where the illness went on for some time without intervention. It seems to me that your son will have loving and attentive parents who will attend to his needs. During the course of my work, I have been able to attend seminars on mental health from time to time and one of the most memorable was one on schizophrenia. For an hour we attempted to listen to a speaker giving a presentation. During the presentation, after which we were to take a test on the material, there was an audio of various noises and "persons" speaking "to us". I found myself so very frustrated trying to concentrate on the material being presented. This exercise only lasted an hour. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for someone with schizophrenia who, 24/7, have to deal with just audio disturbances, yet have to try to continue to have a "normal life". I found that after that hour, I couldn't remember half of what the speaker had told us and half of what I did remember, I had wrong. It was, well, maddening. To ease your apprehension, you may want to consult with a geneticist regarding any testing that may be available to your son.

Absolutely super post. I would only add one thing....not everyone is so lucky to have a very manageable illness. I think the refusal to take medicine, the inability to get back on one's feet, the drinking, the very destructive behavior...that is what happens to people with more severe illness. The good news - about 65% are moderate or mild cases, according to one study (suppose it depends on how 'mild to moderate' is defined). The little fellow described, he was waking up at night. That might simply be due to the disruptive household he lived in, or he may be so delighted to be in a home that is more orderly that he wakes up in the middle of the night hoping it's not all a dream. Severely ill parent with substance abuse can hardly take care of themselves, let alone keep an orderly home for an infant. Often schizophrenic parents adore their children, but if off meds and very ill, may not keep to a routine or control their emotions. If there is actual illness, the whole trick to it is being open to the fact that a child COULD have such an illness, and just being very matter of fact and practical about it. Where it is trouble, is where the symptoms are denied and brushed away. I feel like people pick up the attitude about their illness from the persons who care for them. If the person reacts with horror, denial and terror, I feel it can set the stage for a lifetime of ineffective treatment. Facing the illness in a very matter of fact way, in a loving, understanding way, even with humor, it can set the stage for a much better quality of life. I would hesitate to say that every schizophrenic can go through life completely unaffected by the illness. It can be a severe or mild illness or anything in between. Statistics say only 15% of schizophrenics work - but I think that is deceptive. I think many people go on disability in order to get medications paid for. Then I think quite a few people have unreported income. The system sort of stinks - I think people with a chronic mental illness like schizophrenia should get free medication(these medications are prescribed to far more people who do NOT have schizophrenia, and I think the pharm companies can well afford to provide each schiz. person in the US with meds lifelong), and then be allowed to work and collect however much income they are comfortable and healthy with.

Two of my 3 kids are full bio siblings. Both bio parents had mental illness which was due to either genetics or drug or alcohol abuse, one will never really know. Bio mother has committed suicide a few years back and bio father struggles to hold his world together as he still abuses substances. Bio Father has a fairly placid type of personality which I see in my son. Bio Mother was very highly strung, always agitated and aggro but had moments of being warm and friendly. This trait is very similar to my daughter. My daughter is now 13 and is displaying increasing aggression, anger and volatile behaviour. She can be sweet and loving but unfortunately the other side overshadows this. We walk on egg shells around her. We are currently considering medication which is a huge step for us, we said we would never use it but it seems this may be the only alternative to get her life back on track. Nurture can only do so much, nature definitely has a huge role to play when it comes to mental health. I should also mention that my husbands Mother suffered from bi polar disorder and although her children have not gone down the same road, they have had deep depression which they have helped with medication and managed to get on top of. I enjoy reading all of your posts. Lyn

My son (bio) is currently diagnosed with autism but hears and sees things that simply aren't there. It was at first ascribed to his epilepsy meds but even after those were changed he's continued to have delusions, though not to the same degree. He gets confused because he truly believes the things he imagines. It's clear that the delusions have control of him and it's not just imagination run amock, like a kid telling ghost stories and then being afraid to go out in the dark. The other night in the pool he got scared some woman checking her mail was a police officer coming to arrest him, when she was in regular office clothes and hadn't even looked his way. He was crying about a week ago out of fear we wouldn't win some nonexistent competition. It can be bizarre. For now I'm reading up on schizophrenia, since his neurologist says he's likely to develop it, and just trying to be prepared. I have my kids on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, which is gluten-free and a bunch of other stuff free ([url=http://www.pecanbread.com]The Scientific Diet for GI Problems, Autism and Other Conditions[/url]) and has helped many people with schizophrenia, autism, and GI issues. It has helped tremendously with controlling his rages but his delusions are still getting more frequent. I've also joined the yahoo group for parents of schizophrenics (Schizophrenia_Parents), which helps me gain insight into how others deal with it. For example, many parents on there swear that ibuprofen can stop delusions, at least in the short term, and that gluten-free diets are a huge help. I also learned that coconut oil provides just the right fats for retaining brain tissue, so we're now using tons of it at home. I think that all we can do is learn as much as possible and keep deal with issues as they crop up.

Please, please, please, do not believe people who tell you hallucinations can be treated with gluten free diets or coconut oil. PLEASE. If your child has hallucinations and psychotic symptoms, he needs medical treatment. PLEASE see a psychiatrist. I have seen the results of the 'other treatments'. Please for the love of God, PLEASE do not dose your child with vitamins, coconut oil or gluten free diets for psychotic symptoms. It is not at all unusual for children who have been diagnosed with autism to have psychotic symptoms when they get older. PLEASE do not believe those people who trumpet about their quack cures. There are new better medicines that can be given in tiny doses for youngsters. Talk to a psychiatrist.

I'm not talking about quack cures. There is no cure, but things can be made better. Coconut oil is being heavily researched and is currently a leading therapy in Alzheimer's patients. It seems to be able to delay deterioration of brain tissue and is currently the only treatment shown to restore some function that had been lost. It is also being tested for effectiveness in other neurological conditions such as MS. The type of fat in coconut oil is assimilated easily for use in myelination processes. Some studies recommend adding a small amount to baby formula to mimic some of the fats in breast milk that help in brain building. This is all from major medical journals, not homeopathic or any other source presumed to be quacky. As for gluten issues, one out of nine people in America has food intolerances, discovered or no, that affect their health and/or behavior. Gluten is one of the most common, and the gut-brain connection is well documented. In some patients hallucinations may be caused or exacerbated by ingestion of foods that they can't tolerate. Gluten that isn't able to be digested feeds bad bacteria in the gut which leads to small holes forming in the intestinal wall. These allow the gluten molecules to float freely into the body, they end up in the brain and have a drug-like effect. Of course this isn't true of all people, but trying a gluten-free diet to see if any particular patient is helped by it is harmless and if in fact a difference is seen this is a side-effect free treatment for that patient. My son is known to be at risk of gluten issues because his mother and aunt have celiac disease, so putting him on a strict elimination diet, the specific carbohydrate diet actually, made a ton of sense. His rages went from three a week to one a month, seemingly overnight, and when he does rage it's for about 20 minutes, not six hours. This wasn't a change in meds or therapy or anything else, just a change in diet, and anybody who knew him before and after would argue that he never eat another food he can't tolerate again. I am open to meds and never argued against them. With an autism diagnosis he can't be seen by traditional therapists under the MediCal rules in my state. I can't even get him in if I pay out of pocket. I am documenting every delusion and hope to make a case for him to get a waiver to see somebody, but with our current budget crisis and the fact he's already receiving protective supervision for autism, it's highly unlikely I'll be successful. If he does indeed have schizophrenia we'll have to wait until the symptoms are glaringly obvious, which will mean a great deal of damage will have already been done to his brain. This sucks, and I'm busy campaigning to anybody who'll listen to change this loophole my kid has fallen into, but for now I will do whatever I can to help him keep brain tissue and not lose any more. If that means cooking food in a fat shown to help with brain health and avoiding foods that can be harmful to his mental and physical condition, I think that's the only sensible thing to do. Continuing to feed him a standard American diet would be the quackery.

Hi Everyone. Thank you for the responses. It has been a year and Im glad I checked back in because I hadnt seen some of your posts. Update. Our little guy is now 3 1/3. He is doing well. He is still in the middle of an appeal process and he is not yet adopted but very much OUR SON. He is a lovable little guy who fits in perfectly with our family and we love him so much. The reason I was back on this board is that in the last couple months J has said a few things that have raised flags. Now this is probably us just being hypervigilant about recognizing symptoms, but your posts also point out the fact that it is important not to let things go and deny them so i will try to explain what is going on. J has several times (maybe 6 or 7) spoke of his ghost friends. I asked him whre they were and he said "you cant see ghost silly". I asked him if they talk to him and he said " they say mean things"......then would not elaborate. My DH attributes this to us allowing him to watch some recorded episodes of Scooby Doo (all about ghosts), which may very well be true. But I dont know. He wasnt laughing. He wasnt looking up to the ceiling like he does when he tells fibs, he was very matter of fact. It was definantly frightening (to me) it didnt seem to be to him. My teenage daughters also have spoke to him about his "ghost friends". Now I dont know if he continued to discuss them because he was getting attention from big sisters or if it is really happening. We cut out the scooby doo and he has not brought up the ghosts in several weeks. Also, behavior wise......J is a lovable boy. he tells us he loves us, displays affection appropriately, is very intellectually advanced for his age, and makes friends easily. He also is stubborn, defiant, strong willed and doesnt listen a bit. LOL. I worry about this behavior because it is actually to the point that other people comment on it. He DOES NOT do this for other people outside our immediate family. For example, when playing at grandma's or cousin's house or daycare, I always receive excellent reports. However, we can rarely take him to dinner, and vacations are a nightmare. But is this typical of a spoiled 3 year old, or worrisome behavior. He is spoiled, I know. He is basically living in a home with 5 adults and we all dote on him as he is a God send. But his behavior can cause us all to feel so frustrated. We are working on undoing the spoiling, Ha. is that possible. We are firm with time-outs and have stopped buying him everything he asks for. We are truly working on it. But I guess I dont know how to know if these are all signs of "something bigger" or if Im always worried about the mh issues and relation his imagination and 3 year old behavior to problems. I have heard that at some point in time either he or the birthparents were sent to a geneticist. I am unable to find out details and am hoping that once the adoption is done I can take himto a geneticist myself or at least find out if he was there as an infant. The pediatrician has said he sees no outward sign of any genetic problem that would have caused testing to be done at birth, but his old pediatrician let it slip that he had met bf when he had J at the geneticist office long ago. He would not give me any info. Ok, So i know Im rambling now so Ill stop, but I was so glad to find responses here and felt that you could lead me into where to go from here. I hate that im worrying that every little thing is a sign, im really not. I just don't want to miss something that should be looked into, because I put it off as normal. I want to always do what is best for J. Thank you in advance and for all the wonderful help so far.

You are such a good mom. I love how you describe your family and how you approach your little guy. It's impossible for someone to tell from the (very well written) description provided: 1. He spoke about ghosts saying mean things 2. He at times can be stubborn and challenging. Both COULD be normal for a 3 year old. Or not. On the one hand, 3 year olds often are demanding and insist things must be a certain way. My many time-mom sister, often said, 'Little children are the world's arch conservatives'. They don't like things to change, and they often get very stubborn about wanting things. We changed camping grounds once, and all 3 kids, from age 7 to 4 to 2, were wailing and sobbing. 'WE DON'T WANT TO CHANGE CAMPGROUNDS!' Little kids OFTEN talk about tv shows in odd ways, and they don't usually have a neat dividing line between tv and them, it gets all jumbled up with other things. They don't have the language to describe a dream at that age, or usually, quite have it all figured out how dreams work. My nephew was about 3 1/2 when he announced, 'I had a dream last night'. My sister was delighted and asked him to tell all about it. He shrugged and said, 'Ask daddy, he was there'. And the flip side. Pre schizophrenic and early schizophrenic children also COULD do these things. They can get very upset about small things, and they can 'seem' rigid and stubborn. As an example, I visited one guy, and he pushed another person off the seat where he had sat last when I came. He needed to sit there, because that is where he sat the last time. This is called 'behavioral rigidity'. It is NOT stubbornness. The person does it because he has a brain disorder. The only way he can make sense of things is to repeat what he knows from before. He doesn't do it 'to get his way', he does it urgently to try and survive. His symptoms often will get much worse when he changes, so he may suffer a great deal when something changes. There can even be a hysterical, screaming insistence not to change something, or that you must do something EXACTLY as it was done before. They can want some trivial thing and have a 'meltdown' easily over things. With pre- and early schizophrenic children, the meltdowns are usually much more extreme than for typical kids. Such as the example I gave, of the youngster who cried, wailed and sobbed uncontrollably all afternoon because 'the sun came in the window and hit me in the eye'. Too, pre-schizophrenic and early schizophrenic children OFTEN will talk about the things they see on TV 'in a psychotic way'. If one listens carefully, it DOES sound different from what other kids say. Hallucinations and delusions nearly always start with 'material' found in daily life, mostly because the brain usually works on 'available material' and takes it and exaggerates it and forms it into hallucinations. The other possibility is that the 'ghost' he sees on TV is simply the only word he has for a 'hallucination'. They may look soft or filmy (or seem to bulge forward toward him) and wavy so he uses the word for them that he heard on 'scooby doo'. Taking away the 'scooby' cartoons doesn't make the hallucinations go away. This is how the brain processes information, it's not about taking away scooby cartoons. If it's not the scooby cartoon, it may be a painting on the wall, or a bed cover at night that starts the process off, or another TV show. For one person, we avoided all scary, wierd shows, and he started hallucinating over and obsessing over 'The Sound of Music'. It also depends somewhat on what sort of hallucination he has. Especially early on, symptoms may come and go, but they also can be tied only to a certain type of perception. Some people have them only in low light, others only in daylight. Some hallucinations start where there is a contrasty area. Some are dark specs on a light surface, others are bright things on a dark surface. Sometimes they pop up where two different colors meet (where ceiling meets the wall). I'll try an example. A normal child might talk endlessly about the scooby cartoon he saw, he might demand scooby toys, he might draw scooby pictures, but it might be more like, 'and then scooby said, and then the girl said', and 'I like scooby, he's brave and he finds the bad guy' or 'scooby scares me when the ghost goes wooo' or 'scooby is silly when he talks'. He may act out the show over and over. The pre or early schizophrenic child may see scooby doo cartoons, and start to talk about a ghost who comes out of the ceiling and tells him he is a bad boy, follows him around and keeps repeating numbers, makes him poop his pants and tells him to push his sister down. He might draw scooby pictures too, but they might be harder for you to recognize and make sense of. So you see, both can chatter and obsess about the cartoon, but what they say, how they say it, how it affects them, differs. Children can get spoiled, whether they are pre schizophrenic or not. Children can behave beautifully with other adults, and come home and be brats, pre schizophrenic or not. What would I do if he were mine? Because both parents had the illness, I would take him to a psychiatrist, now. Yes, actually, I would. Even if I had to pay for it myself. A hundred dollars or so is cheap compared to worrying about it to myself. If he is starting to become ill, starting medication and supportive help early on COULD mean that the disease has far less impact on his, and your, life. If he is NOT ill and never will BECOME ill, a hundred dollars and a visit to a nice psychiatrist when something is worrying you, is money very, very well spent. Psychiatrists, good ones, are generally wonderful, compassionate and very interesting, well educated people, with theoretical as well as practical knowledge. Child psychiatrists generally love children. Generally, what they do is make worried parents feel much, much better. Of course. I have an advantage (grin). I already know a good one who has helped me and my family with problems that turned out to be medical, not psychiatric. They are also very good at that, having gone through medical school. In many cases, I would prefer a good psychiatrist to a good internist, GP, neurologist or many, many other specialties! I have another advantage. I have absolutely no fear of psychiatrists, and no suspicion as some people do have a lot of that. I want their knowledge and expertise to help me with my people and I know they have the experience to do so. You could be looking at one of four things: A normal child A pre or early schizophrenic child who will become more obviously ill at some point during his childhood years. A person who will be schizophrenic as an adult, who shows a brief spate of 'crop out' symptoms at an early age, and then nothing for years to come, til, say 18-21...or even older. A highly unusual child who has a psychotic period of time when very young and never has any other symptoms his entire life (chances of that statistically are close to null) What would I look for? Other indications. I'd try to build a 'full picture'. I'd look for sleep problems and other issues as well, and make a full picture. And I'd make an appointment with a psychiatrist. He sounds like a wonderful, intelligent child that brings a lot to your life. My hunch is that he always will be a wonderful, intelligent child and adult, whether he happens to become ill or not. Just because he had two parents with it, does not mean he will 'get those genes'. A lot of schizophrenia risk appears now to be with gene mutations that happen in the individual, and aren't necessarily inheritable.

I'm so glad I found this thread! It has been very insightful! I am concerned about my 4yr old.. I'm not sure what's going on with him but something is. We have an appt to see my dd's therapist next month but until then I sit and wait.Drool Prince is 4yrs old. We've had him since birth. While neither birthparent has a diagnosed mental illness, they are both drug addicts. He was born exposed to cocaine. In the past year or so we've noticed some odd things. Drool Prince can be a great little boy. He gets along well with everyone for a few months and then all the sudden a switch seems to flip and he is constantly getting into trouble for normally 3 months. He steals from his siblings, breaks their things, rages, is destructive of his own toys, & constantly pushing the adults buttons. It's exhausting when he's in that mode. Then we finaly switch back to the "good" mode and you almost forget how horrible he was because he can be soo sweet. He used to always be a big sleeper.. He'd sleep 14hrs at nite & a 3+hr nap during the day. I always attributed it to his heart issues or autonomic dysfunction. Recently, he has been found awake =just sitting in his bed, at all hours of the nite. He has problems falling asleep and obviously staying asleep.. When he lays there awake he sits there and picks at things.. I've taken away his comforters and given him a fleece blanket bc he would pick a hole in his comforter & pull all the stuffing out. One last odd thing we've seen- him talking to what he calls "shadow".. He doesn't do it in the open but I've overheard a few conversations.. He will lay in bed and stare at the empty spot beside him and then have complete conversation.. The one time that sticks out in my mind was where he sat and argued with "shadow" about pulling off a hang nail. Drool Prince wanted to wait and ask Mommy to clip it so it wouldnt hurt.. In the end he tore it off & then scolded "shadow" because he had told him it would hurt & they shouldn't do it.. I went in after it happened and he denied talking to anyone or having any conversation at all.. Thoughts??

Drug addicts have told me for years, that they and many of their friends, have psychiatric problems, but since they are afraid to get help from a doctor, they wind up taking street drugs in an attempt to feel better or just escape from their symptoms for a little while. That doesn't mean your child's parents had psychiatric problems, but that it might be possible. Even at that, the 'hereditariness' of most psychiatric problems is oddly, rather low, something that has puzzled researchers for a long time (but answers now are coming as to why that is). To boot, 4 year olds often have 'imaginary friends'. 'Shadow' could indeed be an imaginary friend. Perhaps a youngster who has conduct issues might feel a need for imaginary friends. But usually, the imaginary friend is friendly. He often will have a name like another child might have, and he may have something that will keep older brother from picking on him, LOL The imaginary friend is usually a positive presence. Sometimes they have an argument and 'split up' at the point when the imaginary friend is no longer needed. The fact that he calls it 'Shadow' and the character of the interchange between him and 'Shadow', and that it happened in the dark, there is just something that makes me feel like this is not an 'imaginary friend', but it is just a feeling, I really have no idea. Some people do have hallucinations only in the dark. They can seem filmy or shadow like. And children often refer to them as 'ghosts' or 'shadows'. Coincidence? Possibly, or not. Hallucinations can often be very friendly, or they can be mean. They just don't follow any set rule. But when you are around psychotic people a lot, you start to get a feel for, 'oh, that is a hallucination' or 'oh, that doesn't sound like one'. After a while one just sort of gets a feel for what sounds hallucinatory and what doesn't. The most important thing for the moment, is to make it ok to talk about 'Shadow', not to find out immediately, what or who he is, because that just takes a little time anyway. The more he talks freely the more you know how he feels and what he's going through. And THAT is golden. Absolutely golden. You can say casually when Shadow crops up again, 'Would I like to have a 'Shadow'?' I wouldn't assume Shadow was a friendly thing for him when asking. It's not a good idea to pretend to be able to see Shadow, that I know. Even at a very early age, kids can indeed learn that other people don't see Shadow, and that can make them feel 'wierd' or self conscious and less able to talk about it. It can just be as simple as looking at a person and realizing they never actually seem to look over at where 'Shadow' is. They put two and two together. And for some amazing reason, I think people who have even just some psychotic symptoms, they seem to have a very highly tuned 'fake radar', they really can tell when someone is being insincere, I have no idea how, so I never pretend I can see that Shadow. I have at times said something like, 'I wish I could see Shadow too, so I would know what it's like', the usual response is a horrified look and, 'but Shadow is MEAN!' at least then you know more about how the child feels. You can however give the message that while you can't see Shadow, you don't mind at all hearing about him. Having a very relaxed, non judgemental attitude comes across even to a young child and helps to open up the communication lines. Sometimes mom is seen as more the 'boss' who might just say, 'Did I say you could have a Shadow? No, now go set the table and stop talking about Shadow'. And they will talk to someone else about it. Sometimes an older sister or brother is the person they choose. But they definitely CHOOSE a person. Sometimes a more distant friend who isn't as closely involved. They seem to want someone they feel is going to be more neutral. And talking helps no matter WHAT Shadow is, an imaginary play friend, or a little tiny hallucination. Even if a small child does hallucinate, it doesn't always mean they have a mental illness. It's a good idea to keep an eye on it, if it does seem to happen more consistently over the next month or so, yeah, it would be a good idea to talk it over with a psychiatrist. Who may put your concerns to rest, or want to investigate more.