are you for or against affirmative action?

I have re-read every post I've made on this thread, and have never referred to Blacks. I'm not sure what you are reading or referring to in my posts on this. As Dickons has stated very well... perhaps it is time for an upgrade in AA?

I am torn on affirmative action. I know studies show that blacks and other minorities are still less likely to get an interview or be hired even though they have the same or better qualifications as their white counterparts. On the other hand, the vast majority of my friends are police officers and firefighters. In those professions you have to take a written test and a physical agility test to be promoted. The results of those tests are posted in the firehouse or the police stations for everyone to see. How it works here is that if they have 10 spots open they will take the first 5 highest scorers regardless of their race. The other 5 promotions will be the next top scoring minorities no matter where they happen to fall in the overall ranking. So if you are white and your overall rank is 6th, you will be passed up for promotion by people who scored less than you but happen to be minorities. This causes alot of friction and a lot of problems in the ranks. I have personally seen black police officers and firefighters be given crap from their white subbordinates that another white officer would never have to tolerate. I have also heard what the white officers say about the black shift supervisor that they know for a fact scored less than them on the last promotion process behind his back. A couple of years ago after a promotion process a black firefighter killed himself because he got so much crap from other firefighters because he was promoted despite his low ranking on the test. So, yes I do think affirmative action is still neccessary but I also think it can make things harder for those it is supposed to help. I don't know what a better answer would be but I wish we could come up with one.

So who were you talking about, please clarify? I have read and heard of the "what about the Appalachians" as a counter argument. You did indicate race in that post, when clearly there are other factors ...pro AA.

Manni thanks for the info here:I agree, what's interesting is an Asian friend mentioned this recently, and the indication was that utilization of these programs is not widely mentioned by Asians. Of course they deal with a different view of stereotypes as in all Asians are smart. In general:My previous post is indicating that there is a bias as to Blacks and their intellect, this under-currency (or not) is a huge factor in the pro con AA debate. Same with work ethics. In addition, those who has an (to include many Blacks in this country) " inferior" education may not score as well on certain achievement tests. For sure it does not mean Blacks are not capable. Either intellectually or work ethics wise. My state is supposed to follow-up on a study as to why the Blacks and Latinos are not well represented in gifted programs. So tell me what type of tweaking to the affirmative action programs should occur..and at what point in a persons life?

Shannon is right...Black in America said that in their research a black man with a name that was obviously AA and a college degree and was LESS likely to be hired for a job than a white man with only a HS diploma AND a misdemeanor criminal record (we're not talking speeding violations here though)...in fact they had an AA man on there with a college degree, great job history and management experience and he couldn't get hired anywhere but a P/T night position stocking shelves. He couldn't even get interviewed. This is now. This is not the past.

I think someone could fairly argue that there is a chance that the AA attny will have a harder time finding high paying work because fewer people will want to be represented by a female AA attny, therefor having the burden of law school fees would be greater for her than for a CC person to carry, regardless of what her parents do for work. Just because her parents did well didn't mean they would have paid her way if she didn't get a scholarship.

Nick: Asians utilized these programs to the MAX! It's common knowledge.So the stereotypes of AA's and Latinos being the only one's who "benefit" from AA programs is moot!

In my last job, I was working with a very diverse group of people - most of whom were AA. There were AA professionals of my generation - a retired judge, a retired policeman, a retired postman, a nurse and a teacher (recently unemployed).There was also a group of about seven 20-ish AA recent college graduates who were working this temporary job while looking for permanent work in their field. (NOTE: I do not know if these graduates were admitted to college under Affirmative Action. I do know that the older AA workers were NOT, as it did not exist during our college days.)The recent college grads were rapidly relegated to the mailing room and the shipping room while the "oldsters"(myself included) got the clerk and receptionist positions. The reason - the recent college grads could not speak English without the "street dialect" (so they could not make or answer phone calls) and they could not spell correctly - even simple words like through, occupation, and right! They used text-spelling which is fine for a phone but not for a business letter. I don't know if the fault lay in the caliber of students admitted to college or with the college for graduating these girls without giving them the basics of neutral English and standardized spelling?I do know that all the retirees and "oldsters" were held over for as long as the job lasted and the young graduates were the first to be terminated. I was sorry for them -- they were nice girls, they tried hard, they had that college diploma and they had ambitions. However, if I were a hirer, they would not get the job they were applying for -- and it would not be racial -- just practical!

And this little story has WHAT to do with Affirmative Action? Seems to me like the point is to say, "Young black adults can't speak or write properly even though they went to college."

i have been reading much about this lately as my son recently was identified as gifted. it took a year, and it was very difficult to jump through all the hoops. when i showed up at the screening that day he was 1 of maybe 15 kids there for the screening- a bunch of little white girls, 1 little white boy, and my little latino son. when they said as a result of that screening he was average to below average so he did not require testing i knew they were smoking crack and had my own testing done. yep, gifted. but the school district wouldn't accept it. they told me again he was not gifted. i pushed and pushed and pushed until i think they decided to test him again using their own test just to make me go away. whatever....still gifted. the district office was still reluctant- he had the intelligence scores and was in the 99.99th percentile in creativity and +99.99th percentile academically at FOUR....he hit the ceiling of the test and so they do not even have any idea of where he actually is. they finally let him go to school and we were blessed with a school based team of advocates who believe in him and are in AWE of his abilities. it is clear to the entire team that he is so incredibly gifted that without intervention he would not be able to be educated as a typical student. he is light years ahead of kids older than he is and it is evident every.single.day......which just makes me wonder how those 14 little white kids fared in the screening that day. how can a child be THIS gifted and get "missed" in a screening and written off as below average....unless.....it was because he was brown? i have to wonder. oddly enough, our district does not release demographics of the gifted program....but asking around at different school sites it sure seems like it is packed full of white kids.if you ever find out what the follow up to that study is, i'd be THRILLED if you pm'd that information on to me.

Good for you, mommytoeli, for going to bat. I would have been PO'd also if they did that to my kiddos!!

Good for you! :clap: I will do that, and will do a search and find the first article and pm that as well. Right now I am recuperating from DDs birthday party :arrow:..

Not really going into much detail about the affirmative action thing... only an observation about it.... Most people who are against it don't understand its purpose or how it is properly used. It has nothing to do with hiring/promoting/enrolling unqualified people... its goal is to seek out the qualified. Now the gifted program... I was just discussing this with a co-worker because I had my first parent teacher conference with DD's teacher on friday. We went over DD's progress in kindergarten. My DD's school does teacher identified gifted and parent nominated gifted. Where I live it is overwhelmingly parent identified children in the program. The outside testing is $750 - $1000. How many parents are willing to cough that up? DS's tests were $750 and I know someone else who paid $1000 to get her DD tested. I sat in the room for most of the test and saw what type of information he was being tested on. Part of it was unbiased...shapes and sequencing. The other parts were more subjective and an indication of by who and where you were being raised. If you come from a deprived background or another culture/country you probably wouldn't do well on certain sections of that test. We'll have DS's results next week. Parents of children of color need to advocate more for the kids because they can be overlooked by the school if they are gifted. Gifted kids can came across as having behavior issues. We are dealing with this kind of thing with my DD. She will not perform if she is not intellectually stimulated. On parts of her kindergarten assessment test she performed at a very high level and others she bombed. Her teacher said she knows all the material on the parts she messed up. I asked DD what happened and she said it was noisy and she couldn't concentrate. Nope... it bored her so she didn't do it. She disturbs the other kids because she finishes her classwork so quickly. I'm hoping DD will be tested this month because I see that I will have to force the school to accomodate her needs. Here's info from the Psychologist we are seeing... Can you imagine how this will come across from a child of color?

OMG, this sounds like my youngest!!! And of course, it's because he has behavioural problems!!

Thank you! Lots of people who are opposed to affirmative action mistake it for "quotas" - which it is not when properly administered. So the earlier example of best doctor vs. best black doctor is irrelevant. Under affirmative action they would be one and the same.