Help! Considering Pre-Adoptive Placement of a Kid with a Disruption History

I will chime in, since I was in a similar boat. My 4 year old exhibited ALL of the behaviors described by you when she first arrived. Now... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT KID!!! We are her 5th home... but we parent her theraputically. We attend attachment therapy... and our home is just a continuation of her therapy every day. It was very hard in the beginning. She started on anti-axiety medication though, and truly was like a magical solution. She couldn't stop the PTSD tantrums, cussing, kicking, hitting, screaming... sometimes 3-4 times a day. She tested me more than I've ever been tested in my life. But now, 5 months into our placement... she is an amazing child. Thoughtful and loving, smart and beautiful. I will say, parenting her and her sister together was difficult.... very difficult. I can't imagine having other children in my home (aside from her sister) and trying to get through those behaviors. There's light at the end of the tunnel... I didn't believe it when people told me, I started becoming one of those people that thought she could not change. I am SO thankful I was WRONG!! She's great... I can't imagine my world without her now!

Chiming in also! My last placement: 2 bio brothers, was hard. I was their 3rd non-relative foster home and 4th placement after bio mom and bio dad. They will test you to the limit but after 2.5 years, I can say we're almost there. They're both on meds but they've calmed down TREMENDOUSLY!! Yes there are regressions but now I know what to expect. Sadly, I did no homework before doing foster care. I thought love alone was enough. It's not but this forum's great for anything you need. To the poster who talked about false allegations: I agree with you but I've fostered a teenage boy. His bio mom would tell his sisters (they were in separate homes) if they didn't like the home, they should tell the cw that they were sexually abused so they could get moved. You have kids that are traumatized with a bio mother working the system!

Chiming in as well, Gem had a failed adoptive placement which lasted a while before I adopted her. I would say if a child has a disrupted adoption, then it will be very very hard to trust another adoptive parent -since they were already told that they had a forever home, and it didn't happen :( But - whilst a disruption is very bad for the child, to you all it tells you for certain is that family A couldn't cope with the child. It doesn't mean that you won't be able to cope with him. What they find impossible to cope with may not be what you find impossible to cope with. I have always been able to parent Gem well enough, even though I have felt many a time in over my head. She has thrived with me beyond all recognition. I also was a single parent giving my full attention to her. But her previous family could not cope at all with it. You need to find out as much as possible about the disruption - all the childs behaviors, the family's feelings, what Social services did and when, was the child prepared for adoption the first time, is it different now or not? etc etc And the big question you have to ask yourself once you know about all the behaviors this child displays when at his worst is: 1. If his behaviors stays the same, and does not improve by much if at all, even after YEARS, am I willing to parent this child? - because people often decide based on the fact that they feel they can cope with these behaviors for a year or slightly more, and they know techniques that can 'turn the child around' -they do not think about, 'what if it never gets better' Sometimes, they are just too hurt and traumatised to ever make much progress, even if they have super-perfect-parent (which they won't!!) 2. If his behavior becomes worse than this, and stays worse for years, am I still willing to parent this child - -because it's worth bearing in mind that his behaviors may well be worse with you than them because of his previous let down and the trauma that goes with that If the answer to both questions is yes, then I wouldn't count the disruption for more than it is - another family couldn't cope. Doesn't mean this child is terrible, bad, or not worth adopting. But only you can decide how much you can cope with

Both of these statement really resonated with my experience as well. Every parent has things they cannot deal with. A lot of FP, it seems, cannot deal affectively with tantrums. This is not something we have a problem with...we are "Go ahead kid, show me what you got! Honey, make some popcorn and let's watch." kind of people with tantrums...all the screaming kicking swearing throwing yourself down on the floor in the world will not change our course. If that makes sense. Our FD came from a broken placement. The FFM gave a seriously horrific report about her behaviors. She literally called FD "the devil herself". :mad: The child in our home 5 months has never ever displayed ANY of the behaviors described by the FM. She had about 2 weeks of honey moon and then hit us with tantrums and every other 3yo behavior that (apparently) worked for us in the past (whining, crying, playing sick/injured, etc). Those first TOs took 30 minutes to get her to settle down for the 3 minutes required. We stayed consistant, firm and loving. It took about 3 months for her to really settle in. IT WAS H.A.R.D!! Hardest thing I've ever done as a parent, questioned myself every day, I was far from perfect in handling everything. But completely and totally worth every second of effort. The 11yo boy we are matched with is ALSO coming from a broken placement and his was an Adoptive placement. Reading his summary assessment / history was just heartbreaking. But reading between the lines of the reports and talking to the people who know him, he is a good kid that needs a chance. Our approach will be the same as with T in that we are preparing for the worst, but setting him up for his best. Open and honest communication at his level, engaging him as a partner as appropriate for his age/development. I agree with asking yourself if the behaviors described occur long term in her home, can you deal with that? Do you have enough confidence and strenth in your parenting skills to be calm, firm, consistant and loving AND be willing to reach out for help? Good luck with whatever you decide!

Hang on, no idea why I put 'he' instead of 'she' all the way through my post. Sorry! :)

I love this, will you adopt me? :-) The first visit of actual case worker, we were standing out in front of the house, and the 3-y-o boy started throwing little sticks and things against the garage door. I totally ignored him and said to her, "He thinks he can get my goat by doing that, but I could care less." I don't really know if she understood me. What was going on? The underlying question, "How easy is it to irritate you?" Underneath that question is: "Which is more important, your garage door or me?" Well, that's no contest, it's a danged door. It blows my mind that people run around like chickens with heads cut off when children swear. Well, hello. They've been living with people who swear every 4th word. It's like adopting a child from France: they speak French. The child isn't "bad", it's just all they've ever known. I've never popped popcorn... but have said, "Could you scream a little louder, I'm having trouble hearing you." (with earplugs in) When you ask the child for more of what they're dishing out you have *immediately* won that power struggle. If the child keeps doing that behavior, they are now doing What You Told Them To Do -- which is what they're trying to avoid at all costs. Boy is that effective! Want the child in the car? "Bet you can't beat me to the car!" Every time, every single time, for at least 8 years, that will work. "Bet you can't get into the car seat before I count to 5!"

You all have given me so much to think about, to read and to consider. Thank you SO much! The parents on this forum are so informed. I am taking it slow. I've talked to the workers, CASA and read all her reports. I am set to talk to her foster mom soon. Her team is being very open with me which is a good sign. One thing that is clear is Sweetpea was not prepared for adoption the first time around. So if i proceed I will be asking that any adoption preparation include counseling to help her understand EXACTLY what is happening. I'd rather not rush it and have her well-prepared than to take her in two minutes for a fiasco. In the past decisions were made and she was swooped down and moved without any prep. My kids are the big question. I have two teens and an 8 year-old. All have special needs backgrounds but I adopted them pretty young. I have dealt with drug effects, FAE and attachment issues (in a toddler, not a kiddo her age). I have dealt with raging and property destruction. But....PTSD is pretty new to me. What can I expect? Can it resolve??? I am thinking if I proceed I should have the entire family, including Sweetpea, attend therapy together. My existing kids will need lots of support. If Sweetpea goes to town to test the placement my kids will need to be prepared and supported. The good news is Sweetpea has no history of targeting other kids. She loves other kids and is eager to play and connect with them. Her workers feel she would flourish with healthy, happy siblings like my kids. Sweetpea longs for a big sister, which I can give her, and for a AA family, which I can give her. There is a lot here that seems like a good match. But then I am sure the last family seemed like a good match too. However, they were childless. They sounded like great people but maybe they were not prepared to deal with her issues. There's stuff I can handle as a seasoned parent that would probably freak many new parents. I can completely sympathize with a new family that has never parented and yet is asked to deal with an 8-year-old who cusses like a sailor and trashes her room. I have heard it all. I adopted a 2 year-old that knew more potty words than I did. Nothing is sadder than watching a toddler rage while calling you the c word. In other words, maybe that wasn't the right family and maybe I would be. Or maybe not. On the issue if I can do the worst for two years...ten years....or more. That is a hard one. I can never wrap my mind around that. I think there is a point where if I am not helping a child I would consider placement in a treatment facility. Disruption would be the last, last resort. I am fully expecting to get guardianship of one of my existing kids and keeping her until 21. In other words I don't give up easy. I know I am a super strong person. My kids know it. I have no doubt of it but my kids.....should they have to be super strong people too? I have a good support system in some ways but not in others. I am sure some coworkers and such will wonder why I would take this on. My existing kids will no doubt have similar feelings which I would need to hear and honor. At the same time Sweetpea has such potential....boy, this is going to be a hard decision!

Im still reading though this thread. I can't really help, but i can relate a little to sweetpeas situation if it means anything.I don't know about PTSD specifically to offer any advise, but I can say that ODD (oppositional defiance disorder) can absolutely be overcome and it sounds very similar too it in it's description. But it takes time and therapy, and a support system that's based on therapy. And anger and frustration aren't part of that support. This is where I think a lot of parents may fail. By therapy, I mean for her - and a different therapy for yourself to learn how to help her. If you try to do it without fully understanding the support she requires, you both may fail. Another way to look at it: When a child isn't getting good support, love, and good attention and reactions, they automatically switch to bad support and bad attention/reactions. Why? There's no other choice! There is no middle ground. Just understand that this isn't a cognitive decision on the childs part. It's a natural survival tactic that's been self-learned. Your challenges will be to break this habit of switching to "the dark side" so to speak when things get dicey. Medications "may" help to calm her, but they don't UN-Teach anything. I have yet to find a band aid for a broken heart. If someone recommends medication without therapy - run to a different therapist. Can she snap out of it? YES! Absolutely. But it only happens inside her head, and not anyone elses. It can't be forced. Forcing causes resentment, or is seen as a direct attack, which only fast-tracks her back to "the dark side". Esp if she gets a reaction from bad behavior. She has to unlearn the things she's managed to self-teach. Its gonna drive you bonkers. But can you imagine her frustrations?? That's why a good solid support system is SOOO critical.But again, PTSD may be different. I guess I just wanted to offer the promise of hope more then anything. On a side note: The more I read threads such as this, the more im amazed at the things you guys do, and how much you all really do care about all the kids. Not your own placement, but the others too! I wish ALL FP could be more like yll. Your all so wonderful. To be honest, I feel like im gonna cry. Sorry so mooshy. But you guys have earned every hug your child gives you. They are very very lucky.Tara(the original "wild" girl)

PTSD... Gem has this, and I can tell you a bit about it and living with it PTSD needs therapy and treatment for definite - usually people have Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. The problem with this is its a talk therapy alone with just the child and therapist, and it is focused on the here and now, and how the person responds to a situation - it is about changing their responses -feelings, actions, thoughts. This requires that the child be able to talk about their feelings and emotions! Now a lot of abused children can't do this, and in fact they may have no idea why they feel the way they do, or why they have a sudden angry outburst etc. Also, being a one on one therapy, if a child has significant attachment problems, it will most likely be pretty useless, because you have to trust your therapist and not manipulate or pull the wool over their eyes! PTSD is easier to overcome generally if you have just one traumatic incident that led to PTSD, e.g walking through the park and getting beaten up for no reason. BUT most of kids in FC with PTSD have suffered multiple traumatic incidents. They may have watched continuous domestic violence, seen one parent render the other unconscious, they may have been beaten themselves, or repeatedly sexually abused, etc etc. Often all of these things. In the growing child, this will mean their brain develops 'wrong' and they have 'developmental trauma' and attachment problems as well as PTSD - Sweetpea I can tell you most likely has 'Complex PTSD' rather than just PTSD, which probably can't be fixed anytime soon, I have to tell you that. This will take a long time most likely to see major improvements, and the usual therapy (CBT) may well not work because of the above reasons. She may need another type of therapy instead, such as an attachment based psychotherapy before anything else, although as my second page ponts out, attachment therapy hasn't been shown to have any effect on PTSD. Gem has CBT as an adult, she had different therapies and treatments in the past. She does very well with it now though, so it's worth bearing in mind. These two pages are good This page is about CBT, the usual recomended treatment for PTSD [url=http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfoforall/treatments/cbt.aspx]Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT)[/url] Gem had EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Re-processing) therapy first. This aims to help the brain process the traumatic memories, and it is done by means of using eye movements. Lots of children do get stuck because their brains don't or can't process the memories, and this aims to 'unfreeze' the memories so they can be overcome. Gem had great success with it [url=http://www.emdrassociation.org.uk/about-emdr-therapy/]EMDR Association UK & Ireland - About EMDR Therapy[/url] Medications commonly used are called SSRI antidepressants. Other medications and other types of anti depressants might also be used About antidepressants - [url=http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfoforall/problems/depression/antidepressants.aspx]Antidepressants[/url] FINALLY, I come onto the bit you probably need the most - the symptons and living with PTSD for an extended period of time! The symptoms will vary in different people About PTSD - [url=http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/problems/ptsd/posttraumaticstressdisorder.aspx]Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)[/url] Gem had - flashbacks, nightmares, anger outbursts and rages, and hypervigilance.. those were her main symptoms. I can tell you that made bedtime very very difficult - she was too afraid to sleep, and her nightmares were very bad indeed. The anger and rages might were hard to deal with, and I found it difficult to workout whether she might have an attachment disorder because obviously that can come with raging as well as controlling behavior. But no, today I'm pretty sure the anger wasn't AD because i saw her attach to me, it was the PTSD. Her sleep problems overwhelmed me because lack of sleep prevented me from being a good parent because i was constantly grumpy and frazzled! The life saver was melatonin which got her to sleep when she couldn't, although nightmares would wake her up. Typically though, nightmares happened earaly hours of the morning, by which time I had grabbed a couple of hours kip! You may find it hard to pick apart her symptoms if she has more than one condition e.g. ODD and PTSD, or ADHD, or RAD etc etc. What is a symptom of what etc You can expect that it will take time! No quick fix. No shortcuts. It is hard, but YES, PTSD can be slowly overcome - Gem is nearly done with her CBT, it is 14 years later but finally I think she is coming to the end of her fight with it! She no longer nightmares and her hypervigilance has relaxed, and flashbacks stopped. Her problems now are with relating to people and depression can creep up on her along with lots of anxiety about social situations It may sound scary from what i've put here, but with my Gem, it's been so worth it - never regretted adopting her, it's been an amazing journey :) :grouphug:

With S it is very hard to tell where the RAD ends and the PTSD begins... but I would guess it would be similar for Sweetpea. Even if she does not have RAD, she will certainly have attachment issues (I see attachment as a spectrum) There are triggers everywhere. Sometimes he can tell me what they were, more often neither of us know. He can go from being a happy, bubbly kid to extreme fear and anger because of the tone of someone's voice, or a slamming door. His biggest trigger is when he feels abandoned- and that can happen because I took the garbage out, or because I happened to be in the bathroom at the moment he felt he needed me. (on a side note- Time outs failed MISERABLY here.... make sure you read about "time in" if you haven't already) Yes, it can be overcome, but what I have had to learn to accept is- I cannot MAKE him get better. I can give him all the tools. I can parent therapeutically (to the best of my ability) I can take him to therapy, I can put everything in place for him to get better-- but ultimately, in the end, he will have to choose whether to do the work and learn to manage his emotions, or he can choose to hold on to the anger. I am kind of a geek, and I actually think about it like Star Wars, lol. He is like Anakin- he has suffered so much, but it is his choice whether to stay on the dark side or work to come over to the "good guys". He has only been with me 2 years, and he has come a LONG way in the past 6 months, so I am hopeful

She sounds tough, but you could do it. Do think things through-- BUT-if you DO decide to do this, or even if not, you HAVE to read The connected Child (by Karyn Purvis, David Cross, and Wendy Sunshine). This book SAVED us from disrupting-we had put in our 30 days. I got my hands on this book--- EVERY FOSTER PARENT/ADOPTIVE PARENT MUST READ THIS BOOK!!! Am I making myself clear?????? READ IT!! :) Seriously-kids who have been through multiple homes, terrible childhoods, etc. really need to be understood- and for the first 10 months of our placement, I did not understand. Now I do. And now there are no tantrums. I'm going to post a separately thread about this book but please do get it and read it-especially if you open your home to her.

ABSOLUTELY!!! Read that book! It saved our placement too! It really makes it easy to treat the kids with empathy (which is actually harder than it seems when they can push every button you have). The biggest thing I've personally had to work on is "un-conditioning" myself... my reaction... my own triggers. As children, we learn things, they are drilled into us by our parents... but to a hurt child, does is REALLY matter that day one they eat with their mouths open? Does it really matter if they talk back or grunt and grumble? I you suppress their attutide and their ability to voice their emotions... THEY WILL ACT THEM OUT! I would rather be back talked to than punched!

Yep, i second MrsCCQ on picking your battles - trying to work out whether a behavior really is as bad as you think or just whether it's because of your own upbringing can be hard sometimes!I have read too many books to pick off just a couple, and some are better on some issues than others, but I have to say, I remember 'Real Parents, Real Children' by Holly Van Gulden as being very good. I recommend that if you haven't already read it

alys1 - That was beautifully written. Thank you.

After reading your second post in this thread I was *so* impressed! I think you can do this. My kids are the big question. I have two teens and an 8 year-old. All have special needs backgrounds but I adopted them pretty young. I have dealt with drug effects, FAE and attachment issues (in a toddler, not a kiddo her age). I have dealt with raging and property destruction. But....PTSD is pretty new to me. What can I expect? Can it resolve???From what I've seen here in WA over the last 5 years, going to 2 fos-adopt support groups, so lots of families/cases, I wouldn't be so sure they were a great placement for her. Here, many time children get placed into what seems the "best available" family at the time, which is different than "parents who're prepared or up for this." So I would discount that.Love your idea to support your whole family with therapy. As my decades-experienced counselor friend says: "You're building a family, you need family therapy. Not individual therapy for the child."I wonder if there's a way to engage your children in helping her, via individual talks or a family meeting, beforehand? I would think that if they feel they can work as a team to help her, that would be the best. That is, you would be making a choice to do this, can they be on board about that choice as well?The AA match factor is huge for me. Think it would be so good for her, make things easier for her. (Just my opinion, if others differ.)PTSD... have you dealt with hypervigilance? And you mention attachment issues. I think you've seen similar. I'd imagine your children had some of it, whether diagnosed or not, it's when our systems move past "stress" to a dysfunctional state. The work of Peter A. Levine discusses trauma. Kate Cairns has 2 books that deal with it. She also discusses secondary and tertiary PTSD. (Secondary would be the parent/siblings of someone with full-on PTSD, tertiary would be counselors, teachers, IF they do get tipped into such a state.)Feel free to PM me at any time for specific titles, ideas, etc.