Where to get info on how Catholic Church was involved with my adoption?

Dickens... ALOT has happened since we last wrote.The Judge in Florida DID release my Adoption Certificate!! And it seems to have much more than I expected in some areas, but less in others.My original mothers name and mine (last name: Daly, first name: Ruth), ARE listed. Sounds Irish?? (Hoping so ;) But everything else is very vague.. .like when the judge says: "I see no reason to not formalize this adoption-- WITHOUT the original mothers approval-- since she UNEQUIVOCALLY turned over ALL rights to the foster parents-- nearly 24 years ago"... "she consented to said adoption by agreement, in writing, dated August 29, 1957, and having on that day voluntarily surrendered said child to Petitioners (my foster Parents).. and placing him in the custody of the Petitioners, AND the Appearance of the Department of Health and Rehabilitation Services, being superfluous under the circumstances.."..Dickons, I just received this copy.. and I am digesting it to see what my next steps might be. Again, I have NOONE helping me (family that is) and I do not have enuff money to hire attorneys to help. I'm thinking about agencies like ICAP.. if for no other reason.. they said I can keep copies of all my papers sent to them, and they will hold them for me for safe keeping, until I resolve this to my pleasure.Please tell me what you think my next steps should be.. I followed up partially on your past recommendations.. but it seems PA does not have a formal 'long form'.I'm also concerned whether I could have been considered 'adopted'.. legally.. way back when I was turned over to my parents.. but just to make sure.. (like you said) they went ahead and made me do this with them.From what I have heard.. back then.. churches and other organizations.. even just individuals-- acting in unison.. consummated the adoption..and it was considered "Legal". Is this so?It's important because, Italian law apparently is very strict on NOT considering someone Italian.. if they were adopted-- AFTER their 18 birthday :(

Halvy said Does it say she signed over her rights in Florida or PA? I don't know anything about ICAP but will Private Message you a link to a search angel with a long standing rep that may be able to give you advice that is based on real knowledge. Check the date on your PA birth certificate - most are dated within a couple of weeks - if you have a photographic certified copy (lots of black on the paper and the text in white) but the paper will have raised seal it should have the doctors signature (white writing). I don't know the cut-off timeline for PA but at some point it becomes a delayed birth certificate because of either adoption or because it had to be created from early records i.e. not the normal route of the hospital and doctor filing for it. (note some states went ahead and back dated anyway - mine was back dated showing mom and dad who had no clue I even existed at the time). The only legal adoption is done in court - I would assume though that you could ask the Italian immigration for a waiver based on the court record from Florida clearly stating that you have always been you mom and dad's child. They have the waivers for situtations that were outside of the norm and would assume Italy does it as well. It is early where I live and haven't had enough coffee yet so may come up with stuff I missed or more thoughts. Will go find a link to the searcher now and send it to you. Kind regards,Dickons

It MUST have been either PA or NYC.. my parents did not move to Florida until I was 11. The one I have (original - regular - 'raised' seal..) has a file number and file date which is about 2 weeks after my birth date. I will still investigate getting a 'long form'.. but I *think* that PA does not have anything like that where there is more details then the basics: Parent's name, county of birth, and a form on the back to amend it properly.Which makes me wonder.. how did my parents (foster).. (when ever I refer to my 'Parents'-- I mean my 'adopted' ones.. since they are the ones I ever knew.. and consider my 'real' parents (no disrespect for my bio's..)..Anyway.. how did my parents 'prove' my identity.. that I was 'their's'.. all those years BEFORE the court decision??I got a Social Security Card (number) in 3rd grade.. like everyone else. I don't remember what I needed to prove who I was (and age) when I got my first drivers license.. job the Government.. etc..Sooo.. how was it that I was *considered*.. *legally* XXXXXXX name edited. BEFORE the court decision in 1984.. and ALL the time prior (since I was handed over)?? Well.. actually this point about Italian citizenship.. and *working* with the governments involved.. is actually going to make getting my adoption and birth data.. look easy..I won't go into details here.. in order to keep the topic.. on topic.. but if anyone wants to pm me I will be glad to tell them more on this. I will also mention anything that might be related directly to my adoption and birth, here, publicly on this forum, as it also might be tied to my quest to claim my EU citizenship.. and thereby help those trying to do the same thing.Take your time!! I just hope my case can help you or others as well.. by the time it is all sorted :coffee:

After an hour you can't edit your post but I would recommend that you private message Crick and ask her to edit out your name just because. As to how - back in our era things got done that were not regular - if the adoption was arranged your mother could have been admitted under your moms name - not saying that is what happened but things were WAY different back then. Your mother could have signed the relinquishment form and disappeared so that the court could not investigate that the relinquishment was done properly and someone fixed something to get you a birth certificate. (In Washington they changed the law to require the court to investigate because so many black market adoptions were happening so perhaps PA or NY had the same law). We did not need birth certificates to enroll in school etc - no idea about SS cards - drivers license I might have needed it but it doesn't ring any bells. People trusted each other back then - back in the 50's dad got a loan from the bank to build his house on just a handshake - no paperwork. Nowdays since 9/11 adoptees with delayed birth certificates more than a year can't get passports without major hoop jumping...all because they were adopted and their birth certificate was amended. Adoptees are denied their long form birth certificates. The long form birth certificate is mandatory for all states - that info is reported to the federal government and is part of the statistical reporting required. Things that show on the long form have varied over the years - mine shows delivery at number of weeks, weight at birth, single/multiple birth, number of prior children (live or stillbirth), legitimate/illegitimate, prenatal testing of mother for syphliss, congential malformations, other abnormalities... Oh and my state - my original birth certicate and amended birth certicate have the same cert number. Not sure if other states are the same. Kind regards,Dickons

Ok thanks again Dickons.I tried to look up 'Crick' but got many results (cricket001,..etc..)Maybe she'll see my mistake and fix it..

Hi, I'm Crick. ;)I edited out your name in post #8. Is that the only thing you needed? If you need something else, just click on my username and send me a PM.

Thank you crick :) You folks have made my work and journey that much more pleasurable! :thanks:

Hi everyone, I was getting ready to update all, especially Dickons.. when this happened... I got a letter from NYC stating they can't find my mothers (adoptive) birth cert. They gave me the option of requesting it again, which is useless.. since I don't have anything else to go by other that what I gave them when I applied for it last month. I need her birth cert as part of my claim of Italian citizenship.. and until I know I can get it without it (which I doubt), I need to keep trying for it. Her Social Security death record gives her correct birth date, as far as I know, and name. She did go by a different spelling of the first name occasionally, but no instances of this different spelling are in my records. The other option is for me to apply for a 'new' birth certificate, for her. However as you can imagine, this will probably become an even bigger nightmare, should I pursue this route. I just got this news yesterday, and am digesting it, before I call NY back. The letter they sent-- seems like they are pleasant enough in trying to help me. I just wanted to pass this along to everyone here first, in case someone has some experience or info that might help, before I contact them by phone in a few days. I hope this is appropriate for this particular thread. As far as my adoption info updates since my last writing here.. well there isn't much. I've gotten several more important documents like my parents marriage license, and their death certs. The judge mentioned above, concerning my adoption (Florida), claims my case is 'sealed', and he will NOT give me any other information. I find this strange, since he already released soo much more than I thought I'd get (see above). I would not know where to start fighting his decision. The Italian consulate says I should produce more proof of when I was given to my Italian mother. I would think he has enough, but maybe he's just trying to make sure everything goes my way, when 'Rome' looks over my case. This consulate who is handling my Italian citizenship claims and possible visa's leading up to it, seems very nice and helpful. This is of utmost importance, since there are many nightmares of consulates who are not very nice. Either way, this all is joined together for now. I am currently in the process of ordering my long birth certificate and my grandfathers birth records. After which I will have complied with all the requirements for requesting, formally, my Italian citizenship papers. This is why I need to get my mothers birth cert.. unless after explaining to the consulate my situation, he gives me another alternative. Halvy :)

Just re-read my birth cert.. her first name is spelt different than what social security has.. and most every where else! I'll be sure to mention this when I speak to the clerk at NYC vital stats... hopefully this is the only glitch.Thanks everyone for reading :)And Dickons I just wanted to thank you again especially.. and let you know, the reason I have not ordered my 'long/vault' form Birth Cert...was because I knew it would probably be one of the easiest and quickist items for me to order.. sooo.. I have been spending my limited funds on the harder stuff first =:]

I know it sounds crazy, but this is true. In addition to what I have explained above, my efforts to get what is needed to prove my citizenship (Italian), has gone from bad to impossible. The reason being, now the agencies (governments) are not even responding to my requests.. therefore, I cannot even 'appeal' or take my request further (ie., with out an outright 'denial' or 'dismissal' letter(s) of my request). The Italian consulate (in charge of my application for Italian citizenship via my mother (and her father).. will think I have not done any work (effort) to prove the links. I know some will say that I need an attorney.. but not only am I too poor for that luxury, I would just feel that I would be paying for the same 'none' info I am getting, and headaches. Dickens: my request for long form vault (birth cert) got a response.. but it was also ridiculously suspicious.. they said, all the info they had, was what I had on my 'short' (regular) copy. Therefore, they did NOT give me one (they implied there wasn't one)! Also the agencies in both Florida and PA whom oversee any 'non-identifying' info, have been passing the ball back and forth, with me in the middle, not be able to catch it. Florida courts, where the 'finalization' of adoption occurred, are *supposedly* telling the agency (for Florida non-id requests), that even tho the finalization DID take place in Florida, the case (file) has been *sent* to Pennsylvania.. since that is where I was born. They claim they are not in possession (charge) of it any more. Now I am not lawyer, but I'm sure everyone of you agree, when a court does any kind of work, or *Judgment*,.. it KEEPS a record (and responsibility) of that case FOREVER! Even Social Security Administration, has taken money from me to get info on my (adoptive) mothers original info (when my grandfather registered her).. and they have not even responded (to me). I've called them at least 5 times. I am going to see if I can get any info from them (SSA) on MY original application.. but I have a feeling it will be the same o'l thing... no response (or if I am lucky).. they will say they have "no information on me".. It would be interesting to what information my adoptive parents submitted to the SSA, since I was NOT (supposedly) officially adopted when I was registered with my SS# (when I was about 7 years old).. but had *their* full name -- my new adoptive name, which I have now, and have always had (as far as I know) since I was originally 'handed-over' to my adoptive parents, when I was about 1 year old... :(

Dickens:Concerning your response of 06-19-2012, .. If what I understand you saying.. is true.. then please verify (by your opinion)..It seems to me, what you are saying is; if my bio registered into the hospital (as / under my adoptive mother's name)... then...Then.. wouldn't that make me *not* adopted =:] I mean.. if *officially*.. as you say.. when things were done .. not so 'formally'... but *still* considered *legal*... then would that make my (adoptive) parents, JUST LIKE (and legally), by BIO-Parents!!??Maybe.. this is why when my mom wanted to goto the court, so *I could adopt* them back.. she only did this.. to *make sure* that I would be considered *officially* their son (even tho it seems I was, considered *officially* their child, as I carried their name, throughout my WHOLE LIFE, prior to the 'finalization'??I hope I am not getting my hopes up Dickens.. but I smell a loop-hole here ;)

Dickens: Concerning your response of 06-19-2012, .. If what I understand you saying.. is true.. then please verify (by your opinion).. It seems to me, what you are saying is; if my bio registered into the hospital (as / under my adoptive mother's name)... then... Then.. wouldn't that make me *not* adopted =:] I mean.. if *officially*.. as you say.. when things were done .. not so 'formally'... but *still* considered *legal*... then would that make my (adoptive) parents, JUST LIKE (and legally), by BIO-Parents!!?? Maybe.. this is why when my mom wanted to goto the court, so *I could adopt* them back.. she only did this.. to *make sure* that I would be considered *officially* their son (even tho it seems I was, considered *officially* their child, as I carried their name, throughout my WHOLE LIFE, prior to the 'finalization'?? I hope I am not getting my hopes up Dickens.. but I smell a loop-hole here ;)

Dickens: Concerning your response of 06-19-2012, .. If what I understand you saying.. is true.. then please verify (by your opinion).. It seems to me, what you are saying is; if my bio registered into the hospital (as / under my adoptive mother's name)... then... Then.. wouldn't that make me *not* adopted =:] I mean.. if *officially*.. as you say.. when things were done .. not so 'formally'... but *still* considered *legal*... then would that make my (adoptive) parents, JUST LIKE (and legally), by BIO-Parents!!?? Maybe.. this is why when my mom wanted to goto the court, so *I could adopt* them back.. she only did this.. to *make sure* that I would be considered *officially* their son (even tho it seems I was, considered *officially* their child, as I carried their name, throughout my WHOLE LIFE, prior to the 'finalization'?? I hope I am not getting my hopes up Dickens.. but I smell a loop-hole here ;)

Hey Halvy, Wow... I just going to guess that one of several scenarios played out... a) your mother checked in under your adoptive mother's name and listed your adoptive father as the father. b) your mother gave birth to you at home and put in same as a) above c) they didn't finalize your adoption and why they needed you to in Florida as an adult. d) that perhaps your adoptive father was your father as well (it is possible however likely or unlikely). Mothers checking into hospitals back then didn't have to show id and insurance wasn't a given - most paid cash so who would know. There are no statistics on how often that happened but there are enough reported cases to know that is was common knowledge that it happened. Have you searched since you last posted for your first mother? Do you know if she is still alive? I think in order to understand what really happened you need to talk to someone who was there (assuming your parents passed away / or you don't feel you can ask). Remember back then we seldom needed to produce our BC for anything. The striking thing is that you got your SS# so that had to be your BC when you were a child - long before you were adopted as an adult so something happened. I have a subscription to ancestry so I can look, but have no idea of age or possible age your mother was - you can pm me if you want me to check. Kind regards, Dickons

Try your state's legal services division. They would be able to help you at no cost.You said that your adoption was done by the Catholic Church. You probably mean the Diocese's Catholic Charities (which is the name that what is now Catholic Social Services went by back then). You would have to know the name of the place where your adoptive parents lived to check which diocese they lived in, then you could check the Catholic Social Services in that Diocese. Those are most probably located in the city where the Diocese is (what is known as the See) and in the Chancery building of the diocese. Probably they have a separate telephone number; if not, ask the receptionist for Catholic Social Services and she could connect you with Catholic Social Services or give you that department's number.