Older Child Adopt-Do they ever really love you?

Sounds corny but what about encouraging her to write down or write out all those harsh feelings in a journal? You could agree to discuss them at a later calmer point if needed. The emotions need letting out just not at your expense. What about having her go scream in the garage? Hit a pillow? She needs outlets but you are not a punching bag. good luck. My hubs used to have a punching bag that he would his frustrations out on while getting good exercise. I would be looking for healthy ways to show her to deal with anger...ex...when I get angry I etc...

Do you have a good attachment therapist? Have you done lots of attachment activities (eye contact, laughter, sweets, movement, etc)? My take on it would be to expect her to love you but not expect respect (but of course show yourself respect by having reasonable loving consequences for the child's disrespectful behavior). I wouldn't expect the child to show love like a normal child would, she's having to deal with a lot of issues other children don't have. And it is likely that your daughter feels really bad about her behavior but can't help herself. Young kids don't think abstractly or with introspection, she won't know why she is obnoxious, but she'll know she is acting bad and so she will think she IS bad. My daughter was terribly defiant up through the age of 14, but now at 15 (after a LOT of therapy, especially EMDR therapy) she has mellowed out a lot. This past year she surprised me by one night starting to cry and slumping down to the floor sobbing, and saying how ashamed she was of the way she speaks to me! My opinion is that it is helpful to communicate to the child that they are perfectly normal (given their sad past experiences) and you love them and that any consequences on their behavior is because you love them and are a great mom and the consequences are for their benefit. I've reminded my daughter countless times that the therapist said defiance was the best response available to her as a young child in a terrible environment. I've also told her many times that it would be so much easier on me to just let her do whatever she wants, but that it is because I love her so much that I go to all the effort to set and enforce rules to keep her healthy, safe, etc. I also find it useful to trade services with my daughter. Although sometimes I flat out refuse to fetch for her, it seems more productive to ask what she will do for me in exchange. If she can come up with something that makes it worth it to me, I will drag myself out of my chair to go fetch the Ipod. It is not effective to try to shame her into fetching her own stuff, because she knows she is being a lazy person, it seems more effective to normalize it "everyone loves to be waited on...so what will you do for me if I go fetch the Ipod?". If you have insecurities (and who does not?), kids are really good at finding those buttons. It sounds like your feelings get hurt by comments like "you are so stupid". It is much more comfortable when I as a parent stay confident in myself and see the child's behavior as just childish behavior, rather than letting my feelings get hurt. We really do control our own feelings! My daughter's therapist tries so hard to get my daughter to understand that (not very successfully yet), and gee even though I "know" it, I can still feel like others have "made me" feel bad. I disagree with the post that said to use a consequence of forgetting to take your daughter somewhere because she said you were forgetful. That is putting oh so much power in the words of the child, sounds like a technique that would throw the child into more insecurity and controlling behavior. If she says something unkind, the strong loving parent is not going to believe the words, and my guess at a good consequence would be either to give a loving boring lecture on speaking kindly to others, or to have the child do a kind act instead. I personally would be most likely to just ignore the insults and try to help the kid deal with what their feelings are. Humor is helpful too.

I agree with this. Children need to have a way to vent out their frustration and anger. What is not acceptable, as PP have indicated, is to speak to you in that manner. Some serious intervention and consequences need to happen. I do not agree with the adage that "it is too late to nip it in the bud." Behavior can ALWAYS be changed. Not that you all would believe it [wink] but I tend to be a little too opinionated and rub people the wrong way. It is just my personality. I am every bit an ENTP. However, I had to learn the HARD way at work that I needed to learn how to temper parts of my personality and that others' opinions matter as much as mine. Had I had a good family experience, and not been abused terribly as a child, I might have learned that sooner and not accumulated as many people who don't like me as I do now. Point being, I had to learn in my mid 30s to change, certainly a 9 year old can do so too. One thing that a lot of parents do, that is wrong imho, is rule with an iron glove. I believe that in order to teach children to respect, you have to actually respect them. That doesn't mean you let them talk back to you, or any of that ,but you respect them and their opinions. Something like this: Daughter is being rude and calling you an undesired name. Iron Rule: I will not accept that language, go to your room now! Teach Respect: I am really sad that you feel that way. I do not feel that way about you. I also do not think it is nice for you to speak to me in that manner. I'll ask that you "insert something here" now while I think about what you have said. When we have both calmed down, we can meet and discuss this again. Ok, so that is wordy, but you see the difference. I have tried to explain this to my BFF for YEARS and she has disagreed with the philosophy. And what does she have now, two teen-agers and one tween who all speak to her disrespectfully and a lot of turmoil.

Thanks so much everyone for your responses. Well Friday was our day together and it didn't go all that well, but she has been great this evening. She was inappropriate today at her swim meet, and walked up to me and very loudly, said "give me my wallet!" one of her swimmer friends looked at her and her eyes were wide and her mouth was open and you could see that p was embarrassed. Yes, We have a good attachment therapist and last night i read the chapters on defiance and anger in the Beyond Consequences book. I now believe that much of her defiance is based in fear . We got to talk a little about ittonight as both of us were calm and regulated. I asked her if she was afraid of what her life will be like if she lives with me forever. She just shrugged her shoulders so I said I would never leave her, she would always have a home with me. She is also very concerned about money and tonight I asked her if she was afraid we wouldn't have enough money and she said she was afraid she would be out on the street (just like her mom has been in the past.) After tonight I'm feeling better. I must work on not taking her insults so personally. Thanks everyone. I will use these examples this week when we see our therapist.

As I havent adoped yet, I guess I dont have the right to weigh in about behavior from adopted children... but I am raising 2 teen boys and I can promise you they have never and will never speak to me like that. I dont have a mute button, and I dont think I got lucky with two compliant children, we invested a lot of time, energy and firm but fair discipline raising them, but we also raised them from birth so there is no trauma in their background. Being that you adopted her, Im guessing she is experiencing some inner turmoil that is causing her to lash out. I agree with getting her into a good therapist ASAP if she isnt already! Dont get me worng, my kids are normal and I get the occaional eye rolling and groans about doing something they dont want to do, but I cannot imagine being spoken to like that by a child OR adult. I'm so sorry you have to deal with that. I agree with the other posters that said that there must be consequences for that type of behavior (and it is a behavior, even if it is only words) Otherwise, there is no reason or incentive to change. Good luck to you, I hope you both can find some peace.

There is NO comparison between the behavior of a healthy, presumably well-adjusted child/teen raised from birth and their trauma/abuse/neglect counterpart in foster care or pre-adoptive placement (as in the OP's case). With all due respect you simply cannot compare the two or presume to know what you would do or what would work for a child in P's situation. To suggest you just wouldn't put up with it is pretty naive and I'd imagine not helpful to the OP. I'd also point out that the OP has confirmed several times in this thread that P IS in therapy and that they are working on this behavior. Some children do NOT respond well to consequences or fear-based parenting, hence the book and concept of "Beyond Consequences" which the OP mentioned. I do not mean to sound harsh but I truly don't understand posts that acknowledge having not been in a particular situation but then presuming to judge how the person dealing with said situation is handling it.

Just for a refresher, I am P's 5th home. She came to me 3 years ago 2 days after Christmas when her stepmom decided she needed to move out of state to get away from her family. P was only told the day after Christmas she was leaving. P's mom is a drug addict and when she came, she could show me how to inject drugs into her arm. She was initially removed from her mom After found in the housing project at 2am in a diaper. There is question of both SA and neglect. Two foster homes and the kinship later she came to me. Step moms profession is a stripper so P already has a contorted view of what a typical woman looks like. (I am a tad overweight). she has seen her dad try to rape her stepmom, has tried to drag her father back in her house when he was drunk and seen her dad pull her stepmom up the stairs by her hair. She has seen porn. And she is a beautiful, smart, talented child I do not want to give up on. I just hope I can be the person who gets her safely through her teens to young adulthood. Thanks again for all your help.

It's perfectly normal. As a previous poster stated, she's treating you like Mom. Most of the kids I know that age and older talk that way to their parents, and much worse. I've seen nice, polite (to everyone else), honor role girls swearing like sailors at their moms at a pretty much daily basis. They all outgrew it by college and are great kids. I wouldn't worry about it or over react to it. Most moms around here just shrug it off as a normal stage or ground them for a few days when it's extreme enough. Even my five year old tells me I'm stupid on a pretty regular basis. It really doesn't mean anything and I don't make it into more than it is. Kids are not very good at verbalizing their feelings, and frustration or disappointment (no matter how minor it seems to an adult) frequently comes out in rude remarks to the mean mom who isn't giving them what they want.

Does she still have an IPod?

Yes, because I didn't go get it. She got it on her own later. I cannot punish her right away as per "Beyond Consequences' and there was really nothing to punish her for in that sequence. We have been talking alot about respecting each other and that it is probably not appropriate to call me names, etc. We have counseling this week, I am going to use this example as one to review for guidance on how I should have responded.

You've gotten some great advice and I agree with the posters who've said you do NOT have to just accept the disrespect. It may be common for teens... but so is shoplifting, drinking, sex, etc. Just because it's commonplace doesn't make it acceptable or right! My teens most certainly do not talk to me like that. Nor do my other kids. We've never tolerated disrespect and that won't change just because society might say it's okay or expected. Now and then, I have to remind the kids to use a different tone of voice with me, but if they'd call me some of the names you mentioned, I'd be livid! Remember that what's in the heart comes out the mouth. I agree that counseling, both individual and family, is necessary. BEFORE adopting. Imagine the lifetime of grief ahead of you, post-adoption, if it's this way now!

I hope that that is not true in all cases.

It isn't true in all cases. For DD2, what comes out the mouth is fear in the form of bravado and hostility. What's in her heart comes out in the actions she takes when she feels safe :)And of course, for other children, what's in their heart is never shown because they guard their heart too closely, and wouldn't trust you to know what's in there

:flower: !!!Wow!!! Well said. :flower:

I had a difficult pre-teen once and had some success with these 2 strategies. It only deals with the behavior but we were working on the emotional reasons in therapy. 1) Next time ask me nicely and I'll do it. 2) for name calling, I took the view that she had a vocabulary problem and didn't know a better way to say how she felt. So if she called me a ****ing b****, she had to tell me 3 other ways she could have said it. The first time we tried this, she just cursed at me 3 different ways:o So I had to give her the first replacement sentence and she came up with the other 2. It was difficult for her at first but with lots of "practice" she could easily come up with different phrases. Many moons later, she *sometimes* use those phrases instead of verbally striking out at me.:loveyou: