Angry 9 Year Old - Can she be saved?

If the other families had other children in the home, that could be a big reason for the disruptions. Which is not to minimize them, but I know that at least for me, the biggest part of our difficulties is seeing the effect of our girl's behavior on our other kids. There are positive sides, too, of course, but their lives, personalities, and attitudes are definitely on a different course and far more negative in some aspects and sometimes that is really heart breaking. OTOH, there are positive sides. I do feel, however, that many older children, particularly if they were the first/only in their family of origin, would match up better in a single-child household. FWIW, when people say "for no reason," more often than not, I think they mean that there was no obvious trigger that other people would view as a reason to act upset. Example, youngest can be very angry with middle but do nothing but gripe. But she can also just randomly, say while they are watching TV on the couch, kick her really hard or pinch her from behind. When confronted, her usual explanation is, "I was bored." Random acts of chaos and injury are kind of her specialty, something seen only once or twice outside of our home. The fact that you lead a structured life is a huge benefit. We and others in harder situations find that the more structure there is, the better the kids do. Yes, the child could be a disaster. But maybe she is your disaster, you know? Whatever you decide, I hope things turn out well for you and for her.

Thank you so much for the replies. I apologize now for the length of this email but your responses have inspired me to lay it all out...for the past two months I have tried to talk myself out of pursuing this child but some crazy feeling in my heart says this could be the child I was meant to "save" (although we are NOT expecting her to see it that way. We understand all that). She's had MANY placements, including acute and RTC. She is currently in RTC since her last disrupted adoption. I have received her medical/mental assessments and psych evals (not all, but enough to see the same behavior pattern over and over) for the four years she's been in foster care. Against the instructions of DHS, I contacted several of her FM's for the past year. They pretty much had the same story and nothing shocked me. Maybe I've read so many war stories that I am just numb. I feel like this little girl has a "splinter" in her soul that's festering and infected - the "festering" manifests itself as anger/agression and she will not be able to begin healing until the "splinter" is removed. She needs to gid rid of her secrets/mads that are festering inside. TPR at age 6 due to neglect with 3 younger sisters. A baby sister was adopted right away and she and her sisters were later adopted by another family. She lasted 6 months before her threats toward the smaller children landed her in acute placement, disruption and back in foster care. Age 8-9, she spent 6 months in RTC and then entered TFC program where she lasted a year with first family. She became attached and when DH became ill and was admitted to the hospital, her splinter began to fester. She began throwing tantrums (raging!) for an hour or longer and continued this behavior for two weeks while he was in the hospital. She chased one of the children around the house with a pencil and threatened to stab them so she was again placed in acute placement never to return to that family. During the next 6 months, she moved in and out of several TFC homes - all the same situation - parents 60+ years in age with younger children in the home and they all said they just got tired of listening/dealing with her anger. She frightened some of them. Her last adoption was this past December and it only lasted 2 weeks. Young couple, no children but did not speak to one of the previous caregivers before taking placement. They only spoke to SW which tells me they were set up for disaster from the get go. Child says she didn't like it there so she knew all she had to do was scare them and they would take her back to RTC. Maybe this is true, maybe this is just her way of dealing with rejection or maybe both...either way, I am not giving too much weight to this disruption because I don't think everyone was "in the know". If we proceed, we will be the first placement after her 4 month stint at RTC. I can already tell from my conversations with past FM's that this girl is SMART. She knows how to manipulate. We are comfortable with setting boundaries/limits and enforcing them. We are physically and mentally strong people. Her psych evals have ruled out RAD but I am not relying too heavily on state employed psycisians. Regardless, we already have a team of therapists, pediatric psyciatrist, pediatric neuropsychologist, developmental pediatrician, etc. all lined up for our own assessments should we proceed. We have researched attachment therapy extensively. We have read 30+ books on older/hurt children adoption (plus a million posts on this forum). However, we have yet to live with it day to day. Here are a few of her "horror" stories - at first, FM's were reluctant to share but then they poured their hearts out. I truly think they want her to find a family, just not with them. Tantrum in the car, then jumping out and running into a field - had to call cops to get her back in the car Cursing out the cashier at McD's for not giving her the toy she wanted Tantrum in a parking lot, by-stander called the cops Tantrum at home, smashed a toy against the wall Multiple incidences of attempted poking of eyes - children or adults - but no success Multiple incidences of attempted stabbing with pen/pencil - children or adults - but no success Biting, kicking, spitting, hitting adults that confronted her or tried to control her These are pretty much the same stories over and over. Nothing out of the ordinary for a child who has suffered I don't think. However, all FM's noted that she does well during the week but struggles on the weekend. This tells me she is missing structure these two days. She does well in school (confirmed with Teachers). She's cute, smart and affectionate when not throwing a tantrum (rage!). We are definitely proceeding with extreme caution and I intend to thoroughly interrogate the therapist and doctors at RTC before we ever even meet her. Again, thanks for all the feedback and words of wisdom. Keep 'em coming!

Are you prepared to quit your job and be home with this child? Are you prepared to go to attachment therapy twice a week and do your homework with her all day on the other days? Are you prepared to deal with false allegations and police investigations? Is your dh prepared for possible sa allegations? Are you prepared to lose family and friends? Are you prepared to give up the things in life you enjoy most? IF you said yes to those things, then I say go for it. Maybe you will succeed. All the odds are stacked against you though. You have to be prepared for people to question how you're parenting her and critisize you for being too strict. If you have the guts for that, then go for it. If you're not prepared for all those things, then please don't attempt to parent this extremely traumatized child. Another failure will only make her more ill. I fostered 23 kids. Most had attachment issues and some had full RAD. We were in therapy for YEARS with our kids before they were healed. Even after healing from RAD there are times when they've had to get back into therapy bc our family was in such crisis that I almost lost them all. There will be times that your marriage will be tested beyond anything you ever imagined! You really need to be on the same page when it comes to WHO is your priority. If you both don't agree that the other one is, a child with RAD will divide and conquer! I wish you the very best of luck with whatever you decide. I can't imagine my life without my kids, but if I was asked now to go back and redo it, I'd have to think LONG and hard...then would probably pass.

These "tantrums" might not sound so bad on paper but when you're living it, it's not so easy. Your child is raging in a parking lot and you are holding onto her with everything you have to keep her from running out in traffic and someone calls the cops on you as they think you are abusing her. Not fun. You're drivig in heavy traffic down a busy freeway when suddenly, your child disconnects their seat belt and begins attacking you from behind-choking you till you can't breath. You are trying frantically to get off the road without killing anyone and trying not to die at the same time. Your child flies into a rage in Walmart and it requires 4 security guards to restrain her. These are the tantrums it sounds like you're describing(and the above stated rages are all true stories from parents I know) It will require all of your time, energy and very good resources. If you're ready for that, go for it.

Wow. Reading about the child trying to stab someone with a pencil really triggered my own PTSD. My daughter tried to stab me with a pencil. She wanted to stab my eye out and if she missed, then she said she would just gouge out my heart. Have you ever lived with someone that you feared? I mean, totally afraid of, knowing that they would take your life if they could? Its not fun. Its hard. I was looking into an out-of-home placement during this time for my daughter. I could not live like that. Luckily for us all, we found a combo of meds that has reduced her aggression some, but I am still scared at times. I, personally, would not take this child into my home.

Lucky_13, Well, one long message deserves another! I'm pretty much going to just stick with what I have said before, yes she can be saved. You have clearly been very diligent in finding out what she has been through and why. Lots of people have been very forthcoming about how hard it was for them, as well. Most of those people are drawing a line through her behaviors and concluding that it is all coming from her and you will have a miserable time. I think you're actually closer to the truth with your festering analogy: her behavior is from her past and her continued fear of what is going to happen next. What she needs is to be respected and loved and made to feel safe. Most of all, she must feel safe, and that can't happen when she doesn't know where she will live next month. Yes, it is very hard to love and help her when she screams in the middle of Wal Mart, but even if they kick you out, if you call and explain later, they'll let you come back. I know this from experience. If you compare the worst she's done to how traumatizing it is to be rejected by one family after another, I think she's actually behaving exactly the way I would expect. Of course she's mad and completely terrified. Of course she can't control her anger, because when she has lost control of her anger in the past it meant the loss of her home. Therefore, as soon as she starts to feel angry with a parent, she is immediatly, horribly terrified that she is going to be kicked out. Those feelings can't be contained, and another tantrum ensues. We have seen this firsthand with a girl much like you are describing. We're not through it yet, but the key is to show her that you are not going to give up on her. Also, many of those instances come from danger to younger children, and I would agree that this is a kid who shouldn't be placed with siblings close to or younger than she is. Parents in their 60's also may be challenged to handle a kid who gets a bit physical. Finally, I say over and over again that classic parenting does not work with these kids. That's where the parent always assumes control over the child when something happens by "increasing the stakes" in some way. Often, this is with increasing punishment as the behavior goes haywire, or it may be just with becoming more stern and yelling and enforcing your will. Sometimes, when they are at their maddest and most out of control, all you can do is sit calmly and watch. But, continuing to argue with them and try to control may just add fuel to the fire. And, being unconventional continues after their tantrum. You may be really mad and upset, but what they need to know is that you love and accept them. Sending them to their room to cry it off and then sleep until morning may just send the message that the only person they can count on is themselves. The first sign that made me believe our daughter was making progress was when she let me scratch her back while she sobbed her head off immediately after collapsing in the middle of a rage. I know you will hear again and again that some kids can't live in a home. But, again and again those same kids get their third or fourth or fifth placement and then it finally works. Did the kid actually learn something from being traumatized with moves and change? I don't think so. Unfortunately, it means that those families failed to do what was necessary to raise a kid like her. That is very hard on everyone and I don't have a perfect solution. But, my opinion was summarized before, you have to love them, accept them, and be completely committed. I think you've shown the commitment already, by doing all the research, finding answers, looking for understanding, and listening to a wide variety of opinions. Not only do I think that you can be successful with her, I think you're already determined to do so. It will be hard, but well worth the ride. Good luck!

Of course her behavior is coming from her past. That does not mean it's easy to live with. Healing is a long, long process and yes, she needs a strong, committed parent who gets that with her past moves it will take at least 3-6 years for her to start truely healing. She won't believe anyone will keep her until they've experienced her worst behaviors and kept her longer then she's been in care. I just think it's important not to minimize the "tantrums". Not because I think the child is horrible for throwing them but because unprepared, there is a potential for great danger to the parent or the child. And if a cop misunderstands when called to deal with you holding a screaming child in a parking lot, that child may spend a night away from home in emergency foster care setting her healing back and causing a nightmare for the parent. If she will be an only child and the parents get this, then I do think the adoption is workable. But with a child with this background, the more prepared for what might happen a parent is, the less the liklihood of disruption or worse-someone's injury or death.

I agree with Milehigh once again. If you're committed, and she's ready, then the battle you wage for her will be unbelievably rewarding. Go for it, and keep us posted.

The more prepared you are the better you will be able to anticipate some behaviors and handle them. Our fs (9yrs) came with a diagnosis of ADHD/ODD. He had been thru 2 previous disruptions and had history of violence and anger. We were told that he had regular eating and sleeping habits, but this was not true after placement. He had alot of food issues and several nightmares each evening. He was very insecure and tried to control the environment thru his anger and outbursts about nothing special, (as far as we could see.)We read alot about attachment techniques and parenting kids that had been in the foster care system. We learned what we might expect and ways to handle it. Ask for all Psych and Educational evaluations, IEP's from all previous schools. Speak to prior teachers and foster parents (you'll find some of their contact info on the IEP's). We visited my son's school and observed him during the day. His teachers spent two hours with us one afternoon and answered all the questions we could think of. Once we had all the info and had done alot of reading and research we sat down and discussed whether or not we could commit to loving and support this child, on his worst day.....I say that to say this...You have to commit to the work of it..creating and maintaining predictability, structure and consistency, getting up in the middle of the night 3-4 times, and all in all investing every minute of every day in that child. Our fs has been here since July and prayerfully will be adopted soon. He has made tremendous progress in school and at home. He still has bouts of anger from time to time but they are very short spurts and there seems to be longer intervals of calm. As he says, "The madness is gone." It has taken commitment and alot of hard work, he has come so far and we will do all we can to continue healing his scars... So can all these kids be saved...I don't know...but I do know that they all deserve a shot at a great life...Be encouraged and stay strong.

Well, I'm going to chime in....with the negatives. This isn't an attack but more of a warning. A couple of your posts have been red flags for me. First, we can't "save" a child--at least not from mental health issues. We can help them cope, help them gain the skills and strengths and stability to live in the real world.......but just like with any "normal" child, they can choose drugs, crime, suicide etc. I think it is very unrealistic to think that we just love enough and be committed enough we'll over come brain damage and nuerological imbalances. Which leads me to the next thing is, I don't believe Theraputic Foster Parents are somehow uninformed and unprepared for parenting "angry" children. They have to do more than read 30 books. In my area TFP are required to have at LEAST 6 months of regular fostering before they can even be considered to start the training to become foster parents. Finally, some of the most effective foster parents, theraputic foster parents, are over 60 years old. They have the experience and physicality for some really though kids. Plus my mom is a special ed teacher who works with ED kids. See that for me is the red flag here.....not the issues wit the child you've described. I've read all kinds of books and academic journals----but I couldn't parent my little 9 year old with RAD. (I had two, so there was a safety concern.) Let me be blunt, my love and commitment to her didn't count when she was planning to murder her sister and I in our sleep. My suggestion would be to call your local foster placement agency or foster group. Volunteer to do respite for a few weekends--start slow, then be available for the kids with serious needs (here you couldn't do respite for Theraputic Foster kids unless you were so licensed, but still some experience is better than none.) Finally, I'd go back and read some of the posts from people like Lucyjoy.

This sounds so much like my son (who's finalization is this Friday, May 1!). He had TPR at 5, in and out of foster homes, had a long term pre-adoptive home that disrupted. He was then sent to an RTC which helped and messed him up at the same time. He has ADHD and ODD and Attachment issues, but not RAD. He was one angry boy when we got him at age 8. We did not have any honeymoon period at all! Tons of raging, anger, hurling offensive words at us, wishing we would send him back to the RTC, urination issues, etc. He is the only child and that truly helped the whole situation. We were able to focus on just him. What really helped was being strong with him, not letting him use triangulation on us and tons of follow-through for consequences and a great therapist who is a realist. We also used a lot of love and affection with him. Letting him know that we loved him no matter what and would never give up on him. After being with us for 4 months, he was put into a mainstream elementary school, with no special needs classes. Our son is a very smart boy and always gets good grades and loves to read. We also kept him busy with team sports so that he could learn to play with normal kids and some individualized sports to boost his self-esteem which was very low. It has been almost 2 years and he is doing sooo much better. What you need to realize is she is never going to be a normal child. It's hard, but true. She will probably have a hard time making and/or keeping friends. Emotionally, she is probably 5 or 6 and social skills will definitely need work on. I know my son still has a hard time with being social. He tries too much for kids to be his friends. Just this past year he has a group of friends from his classrom that also live in the neighborhood and he is ok to play with them. It will be a long road for all of you, so be prepared for lots of crying and yelling from either of you! Our son really loves dogs and the transition into our home was much easier because we had 2 dogs. They love him unconditionally and have never hurt them, so he identifies with them. We still have some hard days, but he is in more control of his anger and emotions. What really helped us was one weekend he was raging and raging, just wouldn't stop. I even had to hold him down. Finally, I yelled in his face what he was angry with? He didn't know, so I handed him a piece of paper and pen and told him to write down immediately what he was angry with. It wasn't us, it was his birth parents and how they messed him up. I had him tear up that paper and throw it away. Next I made him write down what he was happy with and it was all the positives in his life, us, the dogs, his friends, his toys, etc. We still have that piece of paper hanging on our fridge. It's hard and it drains you, but we love that boy so much and he finally loves us and his life. He is so much happier these days and can't wait for his adoption and tucking some bad memories away in his mind.

What ever happened? Did you take the child? Did she get placed?

please get your daughter off these meds watch generation rx these medications were never meant in the use of children you could save her life.

Just wanted to point out that this thread is from over 4 years ago.

i know =) i just figured it would be a good idea to raise awareness