Does my = possession?

I don't think we own our children. Though, as much as they tend to consume our thoughts, I think maybe they DO own us. :eyebrows:

Can you claim something as yours without it being a possession? I'd like to think that children would only feel like furniture when they are treated like furniture instead of children. Saying I'm yours and you are mine and I promise I will be yours forever, and I hope you want me to be yours forever, might take time, but it doesn't mean you own or possess each other - does it? I think if I were a child i would want parents to possess as mine mine mine, but I guess I'd share them with siblings if I had too, not saying I'd like it much I would want them to think of me as theirs "my daughter" But I wouldn't want them to possess me, it sounds to much like own me, to me.

maybe we do possess each other, maybe it's the level of possession and the willingness to share it. Is it greed and selfishness, over possessiveness that causes the problem? Oh you love my new table? please come sit and share everything about it, on it and around it. Oh you love my new table? back off, it's mine! the man thing.... I'm glad the paternal world is getting more maternal at least a little in some ways Women can own property now, vote, work, even have reproductive rights, and the right not to be beaten or raped, and hopefully a lot more freedom to pursue. My mother was pressured by mans world to relinquish me. I didn't need a mother, had a perfectly capable one, a willing one - she needed to have or possess a husband to make me legitimate in that christian man's world she was in, and to legitimize her motherhood. Which makes me really sad. We are all God's children, and I also hear he is a jealous and possessive God. I've always disliked that saying - we are all god's children. I believe it, but I've never liked hearing it especially from someone concerning my lost mother. I can remember saying once "Oh yeah well your God's child too, so what do you need your mother for? go get another one it won't matter..." arrgg I guess people just use it a lot as a band-aid. I guess it made/makes me angry because I felt like they were disrespecting my mothers, all mothers. And I am pretty sure the same people said not to do that. I think of my two kids as mine, my husband and I's, they are ours, I say it all the time, but I don't think of them as possessions I created them, I claim them as mine, they aren't anyone elses children, grandchildren maybe, maybe children in-laws eventually, hopefully never step children or orphaned children, but they are free spirits in the world, even when under my wing. Interesting discussion! Making my head spin, but it is early Need to digest this one along with some coffee & breakfast too... yay another day, good to still be above ground!

to me.... "my" only indicates possession when the object can actually be owned... my car... my house.... my sofa.... when i use it in reference to people... it indicates relationship.... to me anyway... my doctor... my mom.... my pastor... my neighbor... my husband... my friend... my daughter... to me... it indicates the type of relationship i have with the person i speaking of ..... which is why i struggle so often, with using "my" in front of the word "daughter".... when it refers to the individual i relinquished for adoption.... because there isn't a relationship there... certainly not what i think of as a "mother/daughter" relationship.... i think of her as her adoptive mothers daughter.... that comes to me easily.... i think of her as the daughter i relinquished.... and sometimes i think of her as my daughter.... perhaps on the more melancholy days....

Thanks everybody for all your comments! This is an issue that really concerns me..... to really help my kids understand and hopefully embrace each of our family members' "belonging" to one another, without feeling like furniture ever again. And we're getting there, we're getting there. Real love takes time.

Hey Julie, Hmmm...interesting stuff you wrote here. I have asked myself this question a great deal. If my children don't want a relationship with me are they still my children? To me only, the answer deep within comes back as yes. Not that I own them but then I don't think I own my raised daughters either. But there is no denying the fact that they are a part of me; of my history; the record of my days on this Earth. And I believe that for me it is all right to feel that way because it is a fact of my life and of theirs, however briefly. Feeling that way - to me - does not negate their mother; nor would I wish it to. But I don't wish to negate myself either. I don't know if people in our situation can have mother/daughter relationships. Or, as in my case, both mother/daughter and mother/son relationships. After spending a year here, I have come to the conclusion that the opposite is far more likely. That's not a judgement of this site or the souls in it; it's simply an observation made after many hours reading posts, scanning posts, thinking, feeling, what-have-you. I have no illusions about reunion; at least none that I'm aware of (which is a more accurate statement). That aspect of all of this will go as my son and daughter see fit which is only right. But I am still their mother in my heart, in my soul. I won't say that to them unless they ask me if I feel that way. That's not something I would share with them without their express permission. After all, it may be the last thing they ever want to hear. Who knows. Shoot, maybe they don't even know - if that makes sense. And that's all right. They're as human as I am; as anyone else is. I can hold them dear to my soul regardless. Much peace your way today.

hhhmmm..... i suppose i do not think of the word relationship as something active... but rather to demonstrate the relativity of two individuals.... in other words.... it is not about relationship in the sense of how we think of two people relating ... but rather it is about how that person is connected to my life.... if i speak of someone who is "my neighbor".... that carries a different significance than someone who is "my friend" or "my niece".... is a different connection that "my daughter".... so, in using the word "my" to designate how i am connected to that other person, i do struggle with calling the relinquished child "my daughter" because for me, that connection was really only true when i carried her and held her for those twenty-four hours.... and for me.... yes, this is exactly what adoption has done in my life... it has negated me as "mother" to that individual. i negate myself.... i guess i don't really believe i am anything at all to the daughter i relinquished... nor do i deserve to be.... as i said, tho.... on those cloudy days.... when the sunshine is nonexistent.... and my heart revisits the monumental loss of relinquishing.... i fully and completely realize that i lost "my daughter"

I think the meanings of language and nouns and verbs get twisted with individual feelings especially when adoption is in the mix. We twist our individual definitions for different reasons, to better accept things that have happened in our lives, to survive difficult feelings, lots of reasons. Sometimes it's good, sometimes not, sometimes it's good for a while, but sometimes not forever. In any chemical substance rehab class you will hear the word "rationalizing".... It's a way to trick yourself into making what you do or think OK or right in your mind - even when it isn't. It breaks my heart to see mothers and sons and daughters denying each other as genetically and/or biologically connected for eternity, no matter what has happened. Denying a relationship I understand, but denying that your child or your mother aren't yours, or aren't real - wow Especially when denying motherhood to any woman for giving birth. Giving birth has always been the very first definition of mother from the beginning. I feel like it ends up being a harmful attitude to all motherhood. It negates it. It causes possessiveness, or the lack or fear of it. It puts mothers and children at risk by making their connections meaningless. I didn't hatch from an egg or a cacoon, was never hidden in a cabbage patch, I swear I was never found under a rock, or dropped off an alien ship, never been a blank slate since the day I was concieved, all have been suggested during my life, even by myself. I came from my mother and father. Like every living human in the world, my genes are half my mothers and half my fathers the blending of them together is what makes me an separate individual - me without my mother and father I would't exist. whether they are alive, dead, missing, loving, abusive, seemingly worthless, insane, imprisoned, or if they only donated genetic material and no matter what I call them. With out the women who have mothered me I wouldn't be the person I am today. In my great great great great grandmothers culture, family members were recorded under maternal lines until "educated" men came to town and changed it all with their possessiveness, their need to possess other humans ( paternal lines can't always be determined as fact, until now if someone happens to have the need to get a DNA test) Doctors today don't rely on or ask for paternal health history for screenings like breast cancer, so it's been widely beleived that you only get these genes from your mother's side, this is not true. They don't ask about fathers typically because paternity isn't easily proven with out testing. And with adoption law and deleting birth certificates, a person may never know these days if their gestational mother is their genetic mother, or if the only mom they know is their genetic or gestational mother - unless someone tells them. In other words, you never know who the father might be, but usually who the mother is isn't that hard to figure out! Until recently with hidden birth records, egg and embryo donations, surrogates and ovary transplants. Just wait til clones start showing up. I think it is so very important for it all to be documented now, (starting as soon as possible since we certainly have the technology to make it happen) and for the human created to own this information. And documented in a new way, with all biological and by-law mothers and fathers and by-law name changes (including marriages) listed on the SAME form, instead of one form ruling out the other. This would negate, delete or erase no one. The law does it, so why shouldn't we? To deny feelings is fine (well maybe not always "fine", but I think it's a personal right of any individual.) To deny facts usually isn't very healthy, facts will keep coming back, the longer it's denied the more confusing it gets. I'll never deny that the woman who gave birth to me is simply my mother, and i have in the past. She has a hard time accepting it fully, she flip flops on me. I know she knows she's my mother, but to "claim" her motherhood of me is difficult for her, and I think it's all due to the possessiveness that Can come up in any adoptive situation. For me, it's OK that my mom flip flops a lot, I wish she didn't, but what is important to me is that in her heart - she knows I am her daughter and she therefore knows she is my mother. I'm pretty sure if we ever find the pearly gates, we will be welcomed as mother and daughter. I'd be so happy and thrilled to hear the many woman here who have given birth to children, whether they were able to have a relationship with them or not - stand up and tell the world: "I AM A MOTHER!" Beth p.s. I AM A MOTHER!!!

Beth, I just want you to know how very much your words mean to me. I've watched you grow on your journey now the past several years, back from the days when I thought I'd lose my mind if you referred to your birth/first mother as your "birth lady" one more time, lol. I love your writing -- it's honest and heartfelt...and very, very wise. Thank you. :loveyou:

Julie23 ((( Julie ))) Of course you deserve to be something...if only to yourself. Oh a warning......get ready....I'm am now going to blather away with socio-babble! :woohoo: You may want to switch to your regularly scheduled programming! :-) I was just remembering. I took an advanced psych course in College (which is pretty funny when you considered I was in two "advanced" psych wards a couple years later - LOL!!)........:arrow: Anyhoo, the Professor in that course had a one question quiz which accounted for 15% of our grade in the class. The question was, "In your life, who is your very best friend?" Well, I immediately listed my eldest, raised daughter "S" as my best friend (my youngest wasn't even a thought on the horizon in those days). A couple of other mom's did that too - listed their children as their best friends. Some guy in the corner listed his wife as his best friend. :rolleyes: Good grief!! (I think he was trying to score brownie points with the Professor who was a woman. And somebody else said God. There were a smattering of other answers that I can't recall. But there was this one obnoxious, extremely conceited (trust me he was conceited) Italian Stallion guy (no offense to any Italians in here - honest) who held up his hand and said in a very loud, boastful manner, "I'm my best friend!" He passed. :cowboy: The rest of us failed. The Professor said that the only way to become self-actuated is to understand that in this life we must act as our own best friends if we have any hope of achieving personal happiness. That we cannot rely on other people to befriend us. She pointed out the sad fact that loved ones die - even children - that situations change, including marraige (she said that to the loser married guy in the corner) and that, while she believed in Him - that a person couldn't pin their self-esteem on a God that may or may not exist. That last is interesting because the Dalai Lama has often been quoted as saying that God does not require we believe in Him. He only requires we believe in ourselves. I find a strange in comfort in that. Anyway, on those cloudy days when the world seems dreary and the winds of doubt blow across your mind and heart, proudly say to yourself, "I am my own best friend!" :flower: I find it helps on those blustery days. BethVA62 Beautifully said!:clap:

Raven, thank you You have no idea how good that feels to hear, and believe. ... now I am wondering where we have discussed (argued) this before LOL I have a hard time of keeping up with or recognizing everyone, especially with different screen names at different locations! Beware ladies, if I know you like my writing or what I have to say, it tends to make me feel free to type even more Especially when you add PMS in the mix :) I'm still not sure why it took me so long to get over Mount Mother On this journey, it's been one of the big mountains for me to explore. It amazes me how twisted and confused I have allowed my mind to be in the past. I've pitched my tent at every camp on Mt. Mother, and there are A LOT of camps there. Camp Rejection, Camp Rescued, Camp Chosen, Lucky, Special, Camp Relinquished, Camp Childbirth, Camp Gift of Love, Camp Fear of the Unknown, Camp Only One Real Mom, Camp Not the Mom, Camp Birth Mom, Camp Every Woman who gives Birth = Birth Mom, Camp Ejaculation Father, Camp Natural and Unatural, Camp First, Camp First I Remember, Camp Open, Camp Closed, Camp Blame, Camp Tricky Language, Camp Bio, Genetic, Gestational, Foster, Adopted, Step, Grand, Camp Orphaned, Camp I Really NEED Someone to be Parents to me right Now, Camp Barren Womb, Camp Newborn, Infant, Toddler, Teen, Adult Adoptee, Camp Adoptee Mom.... there are many more up there...and there's room for more.... it's a Huge mountain. And every one of them, most welcoming and completely sensible to me at first, became troublesome to me, past the point of healthy exploration for me, or boring and repetitive with no end to the arguement in sight, so I kept going. At Camp Accept, I did. At Camp Mourn I wallered and wailed as loud as I could until I was done, At Camp Let Go I physically buried a lot of what I no longer needed - which took so much weight off it suprised even me. At Camp Forgive I found a new trail leading to many things, things seen in the light of love. Once I stumbled across it, I Made it down that last cliff, and it was terrifying, it's difficult to get anyone to go with you, unless they have already survived the trip and are just acting as guides When I found this place where I am now, I noticed how peaceful it was. I stand solid on this ground. I can go to any camp now and get along and discuss anything about Mt. Mother. I don't get angry, the discussions don't cause me pain like they used to - some there get angry/offended at what I say, I understand, I've camped there before, and probably on more than one occassion. I have my difficult days, but it doesn't hurt like it used to, there is no anger here on the far side. I have explored on foot, and on belly, several of the largest mountains and lands in North America. They all hurt me, some took days, some weeks, one a couple months, I didn't quit on any of them. Mt. Mother took me over a decade. If it wasn't for studying historical Mt. Mother maps, the dictionary, listening and discussing, and arguing, at all the camps, I'd still be lost up there somewhere. And now I find out that there is a flat paved trail with golf cart rentals and sweet fru fru treats for those that don't get the Twisted Trail Map, go figure I could have just caught a ride if I wasn't so tuff and stubborn!! I heard people talking about it, but I thought they must be nuts and trying to trick me!. I'd love to have a picnic and invite all the camps - just not sure how. I'm sure some would love to tie me to a tree and add honey. It just feels so good here where I am, so grounded, so secure and peaceful. They said if I kept going I would make it, lots of days I was very doubtful. It's my hope for more to come join me here. I do go back to Mt. Mother on day trips to make sure I am in a good place, and to help others decipher their maps. It's my turn to be a guide for a while. I've flown my flag at each camp and stood and declared this is my camp and all the others are missing something or just wrong. I don't see anything missing here on the far side of Mt. Mother. No one is missing and everyone is welcome, except for the wolves, bears and vultures that would just as soon eat me than love me. I forget who said this, but I like it in regards to a lot of things (especially family, war, politics and religion) "When we choose to stand under any one flag, we divide ourselves into tribes." Off to Man Mountain... it's almost Father's Day! Beth :love:

You post brought both tears to my eyes and joy to my heart.:thanks: Thank you for your heartfelt honesty and sharing your journey. I am new to this board and am an adoptive mother who walks on the Twisted Trail with my daughter. She is 10 and 4yrs ago I became One of the Mothers on her Mountain. I will be the last of the Mothers on her mountain. I am finding my way to honour and respect and include the Mothers that came before me on her Mount Mother. I have held her while she raged and spat and punched and scratched and kicked me screaming "You are the worst of all my Mothers.....and I have had lots!!!!!" I have held her while she has snuggled into me murmuring "My Mommy, My Mommy, My Mommy". I try to be her guide but sometimes I am only her witness. Witness to the pain and grief that she suffers as she stumbles along the path. Sometimes I get to hold her hand, sometimes I get to walk beside her, sometimes I get to lead. Sometimes I have to stand in front of her and bar her way. Sometimes I have to stand in front of her snarling at those that may hurt her. Sometimes I am the teacher but many times it is she that teaches. She is stopping at many of the same camps that you visited. She is only 10 and I have seen many of those same camps with her. I think as she grows that we may have to go back and visit them again. Some of them maybe even numerous times. Sometimes we just get to camp as in the family holiday kind of camp. I have just picked her up from a week long kids camp. She just got to be a kid at camp with her best friend. This week we visit the birth family half sibling camp. This includes the Mommy and Daddy meet BirthDad for the first time camp. Hoping that leads to the visiting with BirthDad camp. Which brings up the can we find BirthMom camp. We hope so. We are lucky in that many of the campers that we visit with ie foster family, birth grandparents, Mom of half sister, adoptive Dad of brother {after we disrupted} are strong campers. They all want to contribute to our camp in a healthy way. We are working our way through positive contact, respecting all members of our triad {actually is it a quadrant when we include her foster family??}, developing healthy relationships. We all hope that "OUR GIRL" will come to the end of her journey on Mt. Mother with a full memory journal, the love of many Mothers and looking forward to the next journey with love and laughter in her heart, confidence in herself and a backpack full of tools to handle whatever comes her way. And maybe one day we will all get to be the "GRAND Mothers" Thank you all for your honesty and sharing the wisdom for those of us also on the Adoption Journey. sunshineMomma

SunshineMomma, I'm glad somebody "got it" :) I'm glad you are with your daughter on mt. mother now I'm glad she's traveling with some strong campers I'm glad you know that making it over this mountain will be more difficult for your daughter than those that got the easy short cut map. She'll have to go up on that mountain by herself one day, things you teach her while you're there with her now, will help guide her way so very much when she is on her own. Plus she'll have someone to come back to and easily tell all her tales to :) It's strange but the camps at mt mother remind me of summer camp in a way You start off in kiddie camp for the weekend only, or just day camp - intro then youth camp overnight for a week - MT 101 Then you graduate to junior camper and stay for two weeks MT 201 then you move up to senior camper and do more difficult and dangerous things Then you plan your own hiking trip, make your own camp You learn about the same stuff, just in more detail and degree as you get older and experience more. Same kind of principle, if ya ask me :) No matter how old any of us may get, there is always something new to learn on Mt. Mother. Hope the bdad thing went well!

Thanks Beth You are so right about the similarities with the kids camps. I had to chuckle. My oldest, bio son 15 has just come back from a 3 day hiking, make your own camp {with 2 instructors} up in the mountains. My daughter is at the going to a week long camp with best friend stage! Visit with B'Dad went great. I posted a long post under the Adoptive Parents page about that visit. Only a couple of people commented so maybe it is pretty unusual. It was really good though and we are really happy to have met him. We also had a great visit with the little sister which was very cool.:grouphug: SM

I'm a little late to the party here, but I wanted to add my 2 cents to the original question, because it's something I've thought about a lot too. The conclusion I've come to is that the word "my" has two separate meanings. One has to do with possession and ownership, but the other is something along the lines of "associated with me." That's the meaning we use when we refer to people, as in "my mother" or "my friend." There is no sense of ownership implied. There is, however, still a sense of belonging. My wife and I belong together, and we belong to each other, but we don't own each other. I guess the difference may have something to do with control. Not influence, because obviously we do influence the people associated with us, but actual control. Sorta hard to explain, but there, I've taken a shot at it. I hope some of my meaning comes across.