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I don't know if I can't see the forest for the trees this morning or what, and I would love some outside input. We are trying as much as we can to implement TBRI strategies a la Karyn Purvis. This reflects what has always been true for us - that we prefer to resolve behavior issues by calling on the familial relationships that they effect.
Background on our discipline history:
Bug required very little discipline outside of meaningful relationship. We, on occasion, used time outs or lines. Now, almost anything can be talked through after a cooldown period.
Cricket requires much discipline, and meaningful relationship only gets him so far. We have used time outs and lines for a bit from time to time. We use them while they have an impact, but often that impact wears off after some repeated use so we switch it up. We've tried time-ins, but haven't been able to make them work for us. Often things get taken away after multiple improper uses (throwing in the house, violent play, wearing those skinny jeans for the 5th day in a row...), but that's less about punishment and more about solving the problem of whatever thing that keeps happening. We have taught him calming strategies which he will sometimes use -- generally, he wants to do what is right, but he gets stuck in a mindset - victimhood, entitlement, impulsivity - and can't talk about his choices until he is out of that. Time outs, lines, removal of objects, or a stern talking-to generally pulls him out of that place, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. Then we can talk, and he genuinely shows desire to have right relationship.
Monkey. Well, Monkey... He is stubborn, oppositional, and has no fear of showing disrespect. While the other two can be "made" to do things, through request, discussion, or prediction of consequence, I can't "make" Monkey do a thing. (We tried out a video game minute system and while it did create incentive, we capital-H Hated it. It caused more problems than it solved and we quit it and have completed the detox. Yay!) We utilize choices as much as possible, but sometimes he is better off without them. (He is one of those "A or B? I choose C!" kids. If I approve C, he asks for D instead.) We try to use re-dos. Sometimes they work okay. Sometimes he will go into opposition mode: Gimme the apple juice. Wanna try that again? Can I please have the apple juice? *Hands over apple juice.* *Pushes it back.* I don't want it anymore. I've found that waiting is generally what works best. When he is in a trauma state, it's fairly easy for me to lovingly wait it out, and he craves connection at the end point, so we can reach good resolution. In non-trauma mode, when I've made a request he doesn't really want to do, he may verbally refuse, but if I disengage and wait it out, he generally will follow through. I spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for the kid, and most of the time it works out. Overall, my waits are getting shorter.
SO, back to this morning's disaster:
Cricket needed a talking-to this morning. After a long morning of letting himself slide into the "wild zone", despite parental support, Monkey and him playing with one of those velcro-ball dartboard things got way out of hand. DH told Cricket to choose something calming and Cricket said the ball game in question would make him calm. I stepped in and told him he was being ridiculous. (I wasn't yelling. I confess, not proudly, I do raise my voice at him from time to time. This wasn't one of those times.)
Well, Monkey leaps in, tells me I'm being ridiculous, blaming Cricket for nothing, yelling for no good reason, being rude, etc. etc. To separate, I asked him to wait in his room for a moment. I talked it out with Cricket, with some success, then went in to Monkey. Monkey first said, "I'm not going to talk to you about this." I said he could listen, then, and explained, again, that parents calling kids out on wrong choices isn't rude. He dug in his heels, held onto his assertions, and though the conversation went on in similar manner, absolutely nothing came of it. I do make mistakes as a parent. Often. I apologize to the kids. Not as much or as quickly as I should (Irish blood), but I do. I don't think I had anything to apologize for this morning. Monkey told me I should "just do your job, which is not yelling at kids."
It was time to go. I held me temper, but dropped them off to school angry and unresolved, and said that we'd talk about the consequence for the attitude when school was over.
Problem is, I have no idea what that is. We consider their needs and benefits carefully, so there's nothing I want to take away (i.e. martial arts, scouts, allowance, playtime, etc.) Taking away a family activity (movie night, park play) would only be more damaging. We don't do things that we don't really approve of (TV, video games, candy), so I couldn't take that away unless I'm giving it to the others just for that sake. Plus, I really prefer the consequence be connected to the act. I could take away the leftover Valentine candy, but what message is that? "You called me mean, so I'm going to take away your candy." Hm. So that leaves me with having him DO something. But I don't for the life of me know what. Every correction is a power struggle or battle of wills with this kiddo. Most of the time I win, but I'm feeling at a loss this morning. Do I just lose this battle and win the war? Or do I have a positive move to make?
So, if you made it this far, thank you, and if the error of my ways or obviousness of my solution is apparent to you, let me have it. Be gentle. :rolleyes:
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What about writing 5 sentences of what he should have/could have said instead?
Maybe giving him an opportunity to figure out the right way to disagree with you or the right thing to have done.
example
I could have said I feel like your yelling at us.
I disagree that Cricket was being ridiculous
I could have suggested another game for Cricket and I to play.
I should have listed to Mom and not argued back.
Something like that anyway. You may need to prompt him on what sentences to write but it would probably help him start to decipher the correct actions/words to use especially if used consistently
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I like PPs suggestion. Also, for kids too young for our points system complicated thingy-that-we-do, and/or kids who don't need it, we really like consequences to somehow "make up for" the bad choice. So, your concern is that he was not respectful to you. He hurt your feelings. So, he does something that makes your feelings feel better. That could be a small chore that you normally do or he can come up with his own "good deed." (if he will do this appropriately)
However, I'm not sure I'd do that here. I probably would because I am more stubborn than our pathologically stubborn kids, so if I say they're getting a consequence, you better believe they're getting one :rolleyes: But if that whole story happened in our house, I would have tried to avoid saying there'd be a consequence, because (just from what I've read here, not having been there) it sounds like he was scared, and not acting out too bad considering. Now, I'm not saying you were "being scary," because you weren't. But something about the situation clearly upset him, given that he was so put out about it. I'd call it a win, that he didn't escalate further.
Now, I may be missing the mark, because I didn't hear how he delivered all those lines about you being mean. If he was snarking at you, or just arguing to argue, then by all means, consequence and/or reteach how he should have responded. But if he was scared, I'm not sure that will be the most productive route.
It sounds like positive consequences (not meaning "good consequences," but "consequences that add something he doesn't like," as opposed to negative consequences, which take away things he does like) might be difficult with Monkey because he can just refuse to do them. If you don't use them often, a kid like him will probably take a longggggg time to do it the first time, but eventually will adapt and realize you mean business, you will wait him out if he refuses. That is what I have found so far, at least :)
Good luck! Kiddos testing you is hard... Trust me, I feel for you...
Thanks!!
Always, something like that may be the ticket. But he currently loves to write me notes (see other post on his nightly prayer cards) and I'd kind of hate to taint it. (Cricket, on the other hand, actually started out hating writing, and doing lines had the added benefit of practicing much-needed motor and spelling skills which are now less of a struggle for him.) I think I might do it verbally. And follow up with a commitment from him of 3 ways to put respect into action throughout the evening, as per Loving's suggestion.
Loving6, thank you for your reflection. I have seen Monkey in flight and in freeze. I have seen him in full-on fight. (Hooray for disorganized trauma response! :arrow:) I have wondered whether these episodes like this morning (there have been a few) are a version of fight for him. I'm really not sure. I can see where past exposure to whatever arguments or DV may have been in his homes (I really don't know) could trigger that response when a belligerent Cricket is getting corrected. But he looks so very different from his typical triggered states - His delivery is level, smooth, consistent, with eye contact...
And then, if that is the case, if the conflict is triggering the little irrational lawyer in him, what do you do with those moments? When one kid is yelling at you about how your response to their bad choice is unfair, and correcting him will trigger the other?
I would have loved not saying there was a consequence coming. In the moment, I felt trapped. He wasn't budging. We had a few minutes before we had to leave for school, but I wasn't confident I could continue to hold my temper if I tried to wait him out, and a few minutes are rarely enough on a respect issue. (Physical requests like 'put on some shoes' can get done within minutes; verbal or social requests have a much longer turnaround.) I needed to end the conversation, but simply letting it go with him calmly insisting I do a rotten job at parenting seemed like an abominable surrender. So out came the consequence comment. In hindsight, I would have been better off just saying we would have to continue talking about it later. But unfortunately, I'm with you on the consistency bit. I said there would be one, and now there must be...
I really appreciate the feedback from both of you. It helps me to think it through much better. Thanks again.
You could also perhaps offer him a do over when he gets home from school. "I thought about it and I would like to offer you a do over. What toy do you think would be a good choice instead of that crazy Velcro ball for you and monkey to play with when we get home?" Not exactly a Purvis do over, but I think it is close enough that you avoid pushing his buttons and still get the message through.
I was thinking of something along the lines of what BestMomEver said...
Because of the time lapse from the incident to you being able to talk to him again I would ask him about what was going on with him and ask what he thinks consequence should be. Depending upon what the trigger was and the trauma behind the outburst, he might not even remember what happened (as forgetting about it would not be uncommon for one his age without trauma triggers at play).
Sounds like you are doing a good job, it is hard when they start pushing our buttons and they know we are on a tight time schedule and they choose behaviors that they might not choose at any other time...
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Thanks for more thoughts.LittleHouse - And "lines" is our term for anything written as a consequence. Could be copied (Bug wrote the definition of forgery out of the dictionary when she signed my name to a school document) or generated (a list of 5 things I could have done instead). Cricket most often does copied lines with an affirmative lesson, i.e. NOT "I will not throw balls in the house" but "Throwing balls is an outside activity" or "Throwing balls inside can lead to damage or injury." I was a teacher before becoming full-time parent and was philosophically opposed to writing as punishment, but was surprised to find it effective in some circumstances. I was thinking about the job description! We are constantly engaged in compromises and agreements, so I'm thinking I might have him list all the things he thinks are my job, then I'll let him know which ones I agree to. I think a job description for him would be way beneficial, too. Cross your fingers for me that showing respect shows up without me having to shoehorn it in.Time outs for Cricket are about mood shifting, for him and for us. When he's worked up, he can come out of a time out ready to talk. They don't work for Monkey in that way. We've used them once or twice in desperation, and are always reminded that its fruitless with him.We have tried self-metered time outs/ins. This is also in TBRI. The issue we have is that kiddo (all 3, actually!) will immediately say he is ready to talk, even when he has not at all cooled down. We wind up taking the power right back from him and enforcing the timing anyway, although not always by the minute=age formula. I absolve myself by deciding that we have to be the external reflector of their mindstate until they are mature enough to self-reflect. I believe that 1/2 the time and the other 1/2 feel like I'm just being inept at teaching self-regulation...Monkey's last home (fantastic but VERY different parenting style than ours) reported that those kinds of time ins worked for them. Not in my house... My first attempt with him took over 2 hours. He would say he was ready, I would finish up my task (putting away spoons, folding a shirt, whatever), and since I didn't drop everything and come over immediately, I'd arrive and he would say he was no longer ready because I took too long. Repeat ad nauseum. Precious boy knows how to work a control battle like nobody's business. We did resolve it, but I'm not sure the time put in was worth it.So anyway... Our time outs/ins have not been effective at discussing and reflecting on behaviors. But that doesn't seem to be the purpose your Positive Discipline suggests, which seems to be to simply stop the behavior. I'll keep that in mind as an option... I'm predicting I'll get immediate changes, with an "I don't have to go there 'cause I'm stopping right now", which initially had me thinking that's a win for kiddo. But if the behavior stops, I guess its win-win. :eyebrows: And for the record, I prefer to approach our relationships as collaborative instead of competitive, but golly that's hard to maintain with an oppositional kid.Oh, also, we're moving away from "I'm sorry you felt XYZ" with Monkey. That is language we use with Bug and Cricket, but Monkey turns it on us. Either he denies feeling anything, or he argues that our admission of his feelings means we know we're in the wrong. Then, when he is called on something like a disrespectful attitude, he brings out, "I'm sorry you think I'm being disrespectful, but I'm not, so you can just drop it." :confused: He used to deny all feelings. We have made a lot of progress. He can now admit to lonely. Sometimes he will own angry or frustrated. He has claimed fear twice. Never yet sadness unless its justification to be mad at me. I'm hoping that once he is able to be more consistently aware and honest of his feelings that we can reintroduce feeling sorry for his states. Until then, we're removing the ammo for those oppositional moments.BestMom, I think that may be Cricket's task this afternoon - to make a list of morning activities that can promote a calm mind.Love, thanks for the support.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877861/
First, the TBRI empowering principles address the ecological (external/environmental) and physiological (internal/physical) needs of the child. By ensuring these basic needs are met, the effectiveness of the connecting and correcting principles are greatly improved. Second, the connecting principles address relational and attachment needs, focusing on awareness, engagement, and attunement. Third, the correcting principles teach self-regulation and appropriate boundaries, and promote healthy behaviors for caregiver and child (see Appendix for examples of typical activities for each of the principles).
Thanks for more thoughts.
LittleHouse -
And "lines" is our term for anything written as a consequence. Could be copied (Bug wrote the definition of forgery out of the dictionary when she signed my name to a school document) or generated (a list of 5 things I could have done instead). Cricket most often does copied lines with an affirmative lesson, i.e. NOT "I will not throw balls in the house" but "Throwing balls is an outside activity" or "Throwing balls inside can lead to damage or injury." I was a teacher before becoming full-time parent and was philosophically opposed to writing as punishment, but was surprised to find it effective in some circumstances.
I was thinking about the job description! We are constantly engaged in compromises and agreements, so I'm thinking I might have him list all the things he thinks are my job, then I'll let him know which ones I agree to. I think a job description for him would be way beneficial, too. Cross your fingers for me that showing respect shows up without me having to shoehorn it in.
Time outs for Cricket are about mood shifting, for him and for us. When he's worked up, he can come out of a time out ready to talk. They don't work for Monkey in that way. We've used them once or twice in desperation, and are always reminded that its fruitless with him.
We have tried self-metered time outs/ins. This is also in TBRI. The issue we have is that kiddo (all 3, actually!) will immediately say he is ready to talk, even when he has not at all cooled down. We wind up taking the power right back from him and enforcing the timing anyway, although not always by the minute=age formula. I absolve myself by deciding that we have to be the external reflector of their mindstate until they are mature enough to self-reflect. I believe that 1/2 the time and the other 1/2 feel like I'm just being inept at teaching self-regulation...
Monkey's last home (fantastic but VERY different parenting style than ours) reported that those kinds of time ins worked for them. Not in my house... My first attempt with him took over 2 hours. He would say he was ready, I would finish up my task (putting away spoons, folding a shirt, whatever), and since I didn't drop everything and come over immediately, I'd arrive and he would say he was no longer ready because I took too long. Repeat ad nauseum. Precious boy knows how to work a control battle like nobody's business. We did resolve it, but I'm not sure the time put in was worth it.
So anyway... Our time outs/ins have not been effective at discussing and reflecting on behaviors. But that doesn't seem to be the purpose your Positive Discipline suggests, which seems to be to simply stop the behavior. I'll keep that in mind as an option... I'm predicting I'll get immediate changes, with an "I don't have to go there 'cause I'm stopping right now", which initially had me thinking that's a win for kiddo. But if the behavior stops, I guess its win-win. :eyebrows: And for the record, I prefer to approach our relationships as collaborative instead of competitive, but golly that's hard to maintain with an oppositional kid.
Oh, also, we're moving away from "I'm sorry you felt XYZ" with Monkey. That is language we use with Bug and Cricket, but Monkey turns it on us. Either he denies feeling anything, or he argues that our admission of his feelings means we know we're in the wrong. Then, when he is called on something like a disrespectful attitude, he brings out, "I'm sorry you think I'm being disrespectful, but I'm not, so you can just drop it." :confused: He used to deny all feelings. We have made a lot of progress. He can now admit to lonely. Sometimes he will own angry or frustrated. He has claimed fear twice. Never yet sadness unless its justification to be mad at me. I'm hoping that once he is able to be more consistently aware and honest of his feelings that we can reintroduce feeling sorry for his states. Until then, we're removing the ammo for those oppositional moments.
BestMom, I think that may be Cricket's task this afternoon - to make a list of morning activities that can promote a calm mind.
Love, thanks for the support.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877861/
First, the TBRI empowering principles address the ecological (external/environmental) and physiological (internal/physical) needs of the child. By ensuring these basic needs are met, the effectiveness of the connecting and correcting principles are greatly improved. Second, the connecting principles address relational and attachment needs, focusing on awareness, engagement, and attunement. Third, the correcting principles teach self-regulation and appropriate boundaries, and promote healthy behaviors for caregiver and child (see Appendix for examples of typical activities for each of the principles).
Hi!For those following, we did job descriptions today. On his own (with a bit of my help condensing and phrasing) he came up with:Parent Jobs-Feed children. Mostly healthy food. Meals, snacks except right before meals.-Make sure you have clean water to drink.-Make boundaries. [His word!]-Give a clean and safe place to eat and sleep (with a pillow).-Help you care for your body (haircuts, teeth, bathing, doctor & dentist visits, clean clothes)-Help you learn.-Correcting children when they make wrong choices.-Love you.Childrens Jobs-Show respect (sharing, helping, kind words)-Working hard at school-No hurts-Obey teacher, principal, and parentsI'm so proud of him! He has such a good understanding, and now, since its all his words, I can call on him to honor it. Already have several times this evening with much success. Thanks!! :cheer:
Hi!
For those following, we did job descriptions today. On his own (with a bit of my help condensing and phrasing) he came up with:
Parent Jobs
-Feed children. Mostly healthy food. Meals, snacks except right before meals.
-Make sure you have clean water to drink.
-Make boundaries. [His word!]
-Give a clean and safe place to eat and sleep (with a pillow).
-Help you care for your body (haircuts, teeth, bathing, doctor & dentist visits, clean clothes)
-Help you learn.
-Correcting children when they make wrong choices.
-Love you.
Childrens Jobs
-Show respect (sharing, helping, kind words)
-Working hard at school
-No hurts
-Obey teacher, principal, and parents
I'm so proud of him! He has such a good understanding, and now, since its all his words, I can call on him to honor it. Already have several times this evening with much success. Thanks!! :cheer:
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It sounds like you got the help with disciplne ideas, but I wanted to weigh on one point. His response may just be his reaction to hearing an argument or reprimand. M still gets very distressed when DH and I have a disagreement, but she has progressed very far since the days when she tried to interject her opinion on who was in the wrong and tell us to just shut up. It was a combination I think of, on our part, not getting into those heated discussions in front of her, and reinforcing frequently "Kids don't interfere in an adult disagreement" and "Disagreements are HEALTHY because they help people solve problems." and "Disagreements don't mean we don't love each other." You could reinforce similarly "Kids do not interfere with adults are correcting other kids" and "Corrections are healthy because it helps kids learn good habits." and "Corrections do not mean parents do not love kids."
This thread has come at a REALLY good (or bad?) time for me. I don't mean to hijack, but I could really use some advice.
I am honestly at a loss over my kids' behaviors most of the time. Could any of you recommend some good books or articles that describe the TBRI idea? I've hit my emotional reserves and feel ready to meltdown myself at any given moment, which, as I'm sure all of you know, isn't very helpful...