Adopted our daughter in Panama

I'd also be interested in knowing about the general health of the children in the orphanages you visited. Guatemala has a terrific reputation for health of children both in foster care and hogars. I was told that Panama is similar, but it would be great to get a first hand perspective. Are the children well taken care of, are they loved etc. Should those of us adopting from Panama expect considerable developmental delays in our children? Secondly, I can handle manageable hurdles along the way but I want to be confident that there is an end in sight... :) As someone who has been down this path, do you think that receiving referrals will become a problem? Also- are you comfortable that once a referral is received, eventually the adoption will finalize? I know it could be a lengthy process, but if there's a light at the end of the tunnel, I can keep trudging along. I'm asking all this because initially we were on our agencies Guatemala list, and when all heck broke out in Guat. we switched to Panama. Well, my agency froze Guat. referrals and with the recent defeat of the Hague- it appears Guat. may be back up and running. I found out yesterday my agency didn't take us off the list when it froze. Our name came up yesterday and they have a one month old little girl, and a 5 month old little boy if we are interested. I about had a heart attack. Now I don't know what to do. Guatemala is still risky because the kinks aren't worked out and there are still anti-adoption forces at work in the country that plan to re-introduce anti adoption legislation at some point in time. Panama is risky because there is very little precedent. Either way, it's going to be a leap of faith. Any perspective would be great! Kirsten

Kirsten... My gut reaction to your post is to PROCEED with the Guatemala adoption while you can.... Panama's not going anywhere... and you can always turn back to them should things not progess with the Guatemala process. Your name's on the list..... there are two infant children that have been directed your way..... you should go for it!!!! Remind yourself of the WORST that can happen, and hope for the best. Don't plant your heart in the soil until the children are ON THEIR WAY ---- and it's a "done deal". If it doesn't get to that point, then give Panama a try. My heart tells me there are two unwanted children who need you..... and you should give it a shot. Like I said... Panama will always be there. GOOD LUCK! :o) ~kim p.

How exciting! I understand your conflict, as you know we started in Guatemala also. I've been peeking in on the Guatemala forum to see how everyone is doing, and I have seen postings that the PGN has increased its staff by 40 percent to process the cases more quickly. I think that sounds very promising. I would think that if you accepted those referrals that you could probably get through on the current rules even if they start to come up with new rules for future cases. I know if it were me, I would find it very hard to turn down those referrals, although we would miss you in the world of Panama! Joan

Sorry for not replying sooner.... but I've been trying.... I write a NOVEL of information, trying to answer questions... and then when I try to post my message, I get transferred to an error page. Not sure if it's our cruddy ISP (I'm in Okinawa, and this place is the WORST... no "high speed" internet ANYTHING available here.. ugh).. or... if my computer is on it's death march (heaven forbid.. it's nearly 3 years old now.. in computer years, that's at least 80 years old). Anyway... one QUICK answer before I go on and on, only to see my reply vanish into internet space... Yes. There is an end in sight. I only ever knew of one adoption that did NOT proceed, and it was due to many factors. However, I have seen some adoptions drag on for YEARS (ours!! ha), but due to unique circumstances only. The children are wonderful (as are all children). My experience led me to believe that there are many children suffering from attachment disorder... a handful of children had obvious emotional/mental problems, and there WERE children with addicted birth mothers... so that's an issue to watch out for. But, I believe it's the same in ANY country that has orphanages and high abandonment rates to begin with... I wrote an article that was published in a periodical devoted to "post institutionalized children". Gads.. it's been so long, I can't remember the title.. but I do have what I wrote saved SOMEWHERE on disk. I'll try to find it.... I took a lot of time to write down my experiences and observations about the children.. so maybe someone here would find it helpful. My best advise for adopting in Panama is to request VIDEO of the child interacting with adults.... various degrees of human contact (playing, eating, HOLDING/HUGGING, and the reaction of the child when the adult enters the room and then when the visiting adult leaves). I'll go more into that another time if anyone's interested. I would love to communicate with parents who have adopted children in Panama -- My daughter is 9 now, and adoption issues surface from time to time, and I'm not always sure what to say or how to react. My friends who adopted have younger children, so they haven't reached this point yet. Anyway - I don't know if this will post or not.... so here goes..... :confused: ~Kim P. *PS: Can I attach a photo here? Would love to show a pic of my daughter ...

Any and all info. you can dig up would be greatly appreciated!!! I'd love to read your article and yes you can attach pictures here. Kirsten

I'm interested in hearing your concerns, and also hearing about the children in the orphanagees. Please email me' Carrieatltu@yahoo.com

I just wanted to let anyone here know that I've written to a friend whose family still resides in Panama to ask what the conditions of the orphanages are now: If they've, basically, remained the same, or if there have been any significant changes. She said she would ask her mom next time they spoke (by phone).... and see if she knew or heard anything...... I just received an update (from the same friend) on Panama's current "state".... how things have changed, etc....... Some guy wrote it who used to live in Panama (quite some time ago), and recently went back for a visit...... all in all, a rather LONG letter, but it boiled down to his feeling that things have VASTLY improved there as far as Panama's efforts to bring themselves into the 21st century..... that the Amador area (used to be military.... right on the Pacific ocean, with a beautiful causeway that USED to lead to a prison.... not sure if the island at the end of the causeway is still a prison or not) has been completely rebuilt, is a tourist "luxury" spot, and is really moving forward. That there are new investors, and that things are progressing. Then, I heard from my young friend (she's 20, and used to live at the orphanage with my daughter)...... and, basically, if you're still "below the wealthy index" things have not changed...... these new jobs at the resorts are all for "upper crust" people, and basically, their lives have not changed.... it's still a strugge to get employment, etc. In fact, she was attacked, and nearly raped while staying w/her grandmother in a "low income" area.. I'm soooooooooooooooooooo sad for her. :o( But glad she made her way to a computer to write..... ANYWHO.... I think that (1) babies are still being abandoned since financial situations for "below povery level" citizens are still high..... (2) that there is still corruption..... (3) that there is a NEW election getting ready to take place, with the anticipation that the current president MAY BE OUSTED (which could change some legal situation - i.e. judges, etc)......... EXPECT that things (judicially) are still going to be slow as molasses........... REMAIN patient and faithful, because although slow, the process will ultimately reach a point of completion. For those of you waiting on word from your agencies or lawyers....... REMAIN PATIENT, and realize that it is just the PANAMANIAN WAY not to call clients with constant updates..... that USUALLY (90% of the time) they are running around doing exactly what they say they're doing, but that, like you, they are ALSO waiting for information, usually trying not to make pests of themselves and biting the hands that are going to feed them.... and that CALLING YOU or CONTACTING you from Panama is still quite pricey....... they don't have the .04 cents a minute phone calls available, or competitive long distance companies. They most likely do NOT have DSL, and if they do... it's probably EXPENSIVE. Take time to KNOW THE CULTURE, and to know that "manana" is not just a word there, it's a way of life........ you WILL hear something eventually....... in the end, you're holding their bread and butter money.... and they need it. DON'T LOSE HOPE....... :) ~kim p. *will try to find that stuff I wrote for that post institutionalized children article.... still digging for it..... sorry!

Hi Kim My sister adopted her daughter from panama years ago. She does not reccomend her agency I am wanting to know ho you would reccomend?? Thanks Cat

To be honest...... I wouldn't use an agency. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH USING AN AGENCY (I sound like Seinfeld, LOL!)...... I would do some homework first before deciding.... I would call the U.S. Consulate in Panama and ask them if they still have the list of recommended adoption attorneys in Panama, and see if they can fax it to you. I can see if I still have mine, but it's going to be very outdated (from 1999). There was one attorney I had heard of from a friend.... if I can get that info, I'll definitely pass it on to you! Until then, do a little research via the internet BUT PREFERABLY THE CONSULATE in Panama....... o.k.? Weigh the pros and cons of agency vs. attorney...... The only "con" you're going to face with an attorney is that you'll have to do the immigration part yourself (IT IS NO BIG DEAL!!!!! TOOK ME A FEW DAYS...... the post-adoption part). You'll need to ask the Consulate's office if they still have the check off list of adoption requirements. It will have "pre adoption" stuff and "post adoption" stuff that you are required to do. It is VERY CUT AND DRY. I know there has been some discussion here about agencies being better than a private attorney because of their connections, etc..... but the one thing about Panamanian attorneys is that they are ALL WELL CONNECTED in one way or another. But you MUST FIND ONE THAT HAS HANDLED AT LEAST ONE PRIOR ADOPTION CASE... and SUCCESSFULLY, I might add. You can also write to or look for online: LAS CRUCES ROJAS (The Red Cross..... might want to check my spanish on that)...... and ask them (In Spanish) if they can recommend an adoption attorney. You never know... it can't hurt to ask. You also have a Spanish speaking friend contact the Family Court in Panama and ask if they can recommend an adoption attorney. They may not be helpful... but it also can't hurt to try. Again... the U.S. Consulate will be able to give you names and phone numbers. I used to always keep my Panamanian phone book with me, but I've put it in storage this time (we're military... move all the time). :) There was nothing that we had to go through, doing it ourselves with an attorney, that wasn't tolerable........ and we saved thousands of dollars. Hopefully, they haven't caught on to the fees being charged by the agencies..... if that turns out to be the case.... I would just go with an agency. I've only heard of two ... World Partners... and another one (?????)... begins with a "C" I think? Someone here can jump in with that info... sorry! It has completely slipped my mind (typical)...... Keep us posted! ~kim

How did you know what to do during the process without an agency? Did the lawyer tell you? What was the difference in costs? Do you have any contact for any lawyers that you know are good? Did you find it to be faster or smoother working directly with the lawyer?

Carrie, You have to realize that when KimP adopted in 1999, there were NO American adoption agencies in Panama! Commonwealth and World Partners moved in just last year (Jan, 2003, I think). Now there are a few more like Faith International and several others. So Kim can't really compare her experience (how long it took) with somebody else's agency experience. I am currently adopting without an agency, but because we changed lawyer midway, ours has been a SLOW process! (Sent our dossier to 1st attorney in Jan, 2003, he submitted it to DNA in June, 2003, hired 2nd attorney in July, 2003...still waiting for referral from DNA). As for knowing what to do, your attorney will tell you: 1. Collect documents for dossier (also get your I-600A app. sent in and homestudy and FBI fingerprints done!) 2. Send all docs to Panama consulate for authentication ($30/doc). I realize some are saying they can skip authentication, but I wouldn't risk it. We skipped the apostilles because it's such a pain to get "Certified" copies of our marriage cert. (from Hawaii), my birth cert. (from Indiana) and my husband's (from Michigan). Skipping the apostille didn't hurt us according to Panama. And it shouldn't hurt us IF we want to readopt in Indiana and have an Indiana birth certificate for the child created. (Indiana accepts the adoption decree from a foreign country.) And re: citizenship, it's automatic for all adopted children since 2000! 3. When you get them back, either FedEx them to your Panamanian attorney or directly to the DNA, attention Carmen Donna Aven, DNA director. (Your attorney will tell you which.) 4. Wait for your attorney to find the child and send you a picture, video, medical/psychological report. 5. Make a decision and plan your trip! 6. Once the adoption is complete, you'll have to handle the immigration paperwork (applying for the immigrant visa for the child), but like KimP said, this is pretty straight forward. Just be sure to visit the state dept. travel/adoption site for Panama to see the list of notarized documents you MUST bring with you to Panama for the US embassy/visa office to go over for them to approve the adoption. Remember, there are alot of steps in between sending your dossier and waiting for the referral that take place in Panama. Your attorney should keep you posted, but you can't do anything to hurry them along. The child's orphan/abandonment status MUST be investigated for 3 months in order for the child to be "legally adoptable" by you. Then the judge has UP TO 6 months to rule, but it could/should be sooner. Your attorney will tell you all of this. Good luck, Rebecca

We had no trouble deciding to get apostilles instead of authentication. Our dossier consists of 20 documents, so we'll be paying $40 for apostilles instead of $600 for authentication. I have complete trust that our director knows what he is talking about. The elimination of the requirement of authentication is a recent development, that I would not have known about if I was not using an agency. I think using an agency is money well spent. No matter how much research I could do online, it could never compare with our agency's director actually going to Panama, meeting with the judges' assistants, speaking with the lawyers, visiting the orphananges, and on and on. And the manual they provide about dossier preparation and what to expect on your trip to Panama is invaluable. The specific instructions on how to handle each document has enabled me to get everything done right the first time so I didn't have to waste time going back and doing it over. I applaud anyone adopting on their own, but it's not for me. Joan Joan:)

NOTE: We FedExed our dossier to our attorney in Jan, 2003, so authentications were still required then. Rebecca

.. I don't want to sway anyone one way or the other.... but I've been seeing this agency vs. attorney question pop up in a lot of the topics here...... I'm for either.... however...... let no one here misunderstand one important thing... Whether you use a privately hired attorney or use an agency.... The process is EXACTLY THE SAME for both. NEITHER has an "exclusive in" with orphanages or the courts. The new system was designed AFTER the courts were consistently criticized (in general) for doing "favors", too many varying requirements, and rumors of payoffs (which eludes to child buying).... It was in the news for the entire 8 months prior to my departure. My housekeeper used to read the newspapers to me. Also.... I get a pit in my stomach when I hear what these agencies are charging...... I really do. I'm curious if anyone here has ever tried negotiating an agreeable fee with agencies? If people started doing this - maybe the fees would be reduced? As for attorneys..... all 8 of my personal friends used privately hired attorneys. Each one of us had unique requirements, but the same results... and one of my friends adopted via the U.S. (Tennessee) - using an attorney she found on her own (through her church) - had had the same positive results. PANAMA IN GENERAL IS NOT EVER GOING TO CHANGE. EVERYTHING IS SLOW.... I have yet to see an agency produce a completed adoption any faster than that of my friends who have chosen to go through an attorney, and handle the final immigration paperwork on their own (which is a piece of cake, and is no different from what you have to do if you're using an agency.... I don't see the difference). ALSO: TAKE NOTE... IF THE U.S. CONSULATE THERE IS NOT ADIVISING ADOPTIONS AT THIS TIME.... KNOW THAT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY TOLD ALL OF US WHO LIVED THERE FOR THREE YEARS THE ENTIRE TIME I WAS THERE. THEY'RE FULL OF IT... TRUST ME. THE PAPERWORK THEY HAVE TO DO IS TEDIOUS, AND THEY HATE IT.... YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE HOW BADLY THEY CAN TREAT YOU THERE (IF YOU GET THE WRONG PERSON..... I won't mention any names, but her first name begins with the letter "E".... anyone know who I'm talking about? I'm hoping she's been long since fired from there..... anyway). I worked with the attache in charge there at adoption information seminars for military families....... they said the SAME THING BACK THEN. They ALWAYS tried to discourage adoptions....... One thing about an agency is there is a business standpoint in that they have their reputation at stake, and they MUST PRODUCE A CHILD for you -- depending upon there BEING children available for adoption, of course. An attorney might have to put your case up there with all of his/her other cases, which means they are not entirely focused on adoption alone. THIS, of course, would give agency users peace of mind. WHICH IS GOOD. People who post here are suppose to be giving SUPPORT TO OTHER PROSPECTIVE ADOPTIVE PARENTS, not competing with them. Sometimes the tone here saddens me....... This is about getting those children OUT of their present conditions and into loving homes... it's not a race. I believe you'll all see results, whichever path you choose.... and it will have been MORE than worth the wait.... I'll put a small wager on this..... :D ~Kim P. *PS: Reb: Stick with your attorney.... from what I've seen you post, he/she is RIGHT ON THE MONEY and has you on the RIGHT PATH. Everything you've said here has checked out in comparison to my personal experiences (not just in the past, but presently as I am helping couples adopt in Panama via my friends who live there and chruch affiliations there).

... while my process in 1999 was different, and Reb is right, there were no agencies (that I was aware of, although I did know of a Spanish agency that had an office there, and was very involved in adoptions)....... I can contribute this: The same documents agencies are requesting from their clients are no different from what attorneys are requesting from their clients. Again... I don't see what the advantage is.... OF EITHER.... not just one or the other.... other than the fees. Attorneys are free to visit orphanages as are agency reps..... Attorneys know the courts, the court employees, the orphanage directors and the system...... as do, I would assume, agencies. I think it's just a matter of peace of mind for clients....... Catluv stated that her sister used an agency YEARS ago......... what year??? Maybe it was when I was there? Or even if it was PRIOR to that....... I'm really curious..... I did seek out an agency while I was there (not knowing that I could do it on my own).... and then when I would guest-speak at adoption info seminars, we were never able to find an agency (locally) to be a guest speaker....... Whichever path people here choose...... I think they both work out to have the same results. :)