Considering Ukraine adoption of older children- seek experienced reviews.

It is entirely possible for you to find older children that are going to be relatively healthy in Ukraine. Many children are abandoned or orphaned, but there are also children whose parents have had their parental rights terminated and they may have been in an orphanage for a relatively short time.There are typically more older children available than younger, I think this would work in your favour. Also, there are more boys than girls available for adoption in many of the EE countries.Things may change in Ukraine if they sign the Hague convention and there are uncertainties with adoption from any country these days. you will never know until you get ready to travel to your chosen country. You do have to register your children with the Embassy and they do retain their Ukrainian citizenship until 18, but they can have dual Nationality. You are required to do post placement reports for 3 years after you bring your children home. However, I have never thought of my son being "on loan" with these requirements, in fact I think it will mean something to him later on that the Country of his birth kept an interest in his welfare after he was adopted. If you are seriously considering adopting, I would start figuring out what country you want to go to, what agency (if any) you will use, and start gathering paperwork, the process is taking considerably longer than it used to and will probably continue to increase in wait time. It will probably take you much longer to complete your adoption than you think, regardless of the country you go to.

The Christian Broadcasting Network studios in Kiev, Ukraine recently discussed the problems of orphans in Ukraine. These current statistics will amaze you:

There are over 100,000 orphans in Ukraine. ՕThe older an orphan gets, the chances for his/her adoption drastically decrease. Each year many orphans between 15 to 18-years-old leave the orphanages. ՕMost of these orphans have no one to turn to for help. About 10% of them will commit suicide after leaving the orphanage before their 18th birthday. Օ60% of the girls will end up in prostitution. 70% of the boys will enter a life of crime. ՕOnly 27% of these youth will find work. These youth live in a country that labels them as uselessӔ and gives no assistance to turn their lives around. It is a society that has created its own problem by placing thousands of children in orphanages, and then when they come of age, they give them no assistance to lead a successful life. It is almost as if the system places them in trade schools to become slaves of the StateӔ to fill the low-income jobs of unskilled labor and remain the under-trodden, 2nd-class citizens that the majority of the population of Ukraine believe that they are. In the trade school dorm rooms there are unclean conditions, sometimes four showers to 400 people, and much drinking, smoking, stealing and sniffing glue by the kids that reside there. What do orphans need?

When older orphan kids (ages 17-21), were asked this question, they unanimously agreed that the first was LOVE. And the second was TIME: come and play games, or teach the children in the orphanage. They said that money and things such as clothes, candy, toys, etc. were not so important. Visits and contact are important. CBN showed a video interviewing grad orphans, who are now out of the orphanage, as to what is important to them. Their answers were: 1. Someone to trust 2. A person who is committed to help them 3. A flat place to live 4. ֓Someone to hold my hand 5. Moral support of friends 6. GodԒs help 7. Moral support, not just clothes 8. To learn to be independentWhen orphan kids were asked what the most painful thing about being an orphan was, this was their answer: To listen to people their own age talk about their family life. These kids are too old to be adopted. But a synonym for adoption is belongingӔ. They need to belong to someone who loves them and someone they can trust. OTHER STATISTICS: There are presently 6,000 adoptions a year (almost all foreigners adopting).ՕOnly 10% of orphans are in orphanages because of death of a parent, 90% are social orphans due to alcoholism, abandonment, or imprisonment of parents.֕There are 450 orphanages or orphan homes in Ukraine. Of these:50 are baby houses/ 100 are regular orphanages for ages 8-17/ 100 are boarding schools for specialized needs including learning disabilities/ 100 are shelters where 30,000 children live temporarily between leaving home and being assigned to an orphanage / 100 are private institutions, housing a total of 1000 children, mostly Christian efforts. Here is another group to contact to check into more information: Hope for Orphans of the World... it is an awesome ministry (NOT AN AGENCY) in Birmingham AL. God Bless you on your journey!

While at your age, you could easily adopt an infant from most countries -- most countries let you adopt infants until you are in your mid 40s, if not older -- I'm so glad to hear that you are willing to adopt school aged children. It is so hard to find homes for older children, and especially for boys. For some reason, girls are more easily placed. As to the physical health issues of adopted children, do be aware that children from most of the countries from which Westerners adopt will come home with at least some minor physical problems, ranging from severely decayed teeth to intestinal parasites. Children who have only these sorts of issues are considered to be healthy, mainly because these problems are so common, but very treatable. As to more serious issues, children DO come home with previously undiagnosed problems, such as Hepatitis B chronic carrier status, lead poisoning, etc. While most of the countries test for certain conditions, such as Hep. B and HIV, the test results are not necessarily as reliable as those obtained from a Western provider. Also, the medical records may not be as complete as they are in the West. And once in a while -- fortunately, not too often -- a provider will misrepresent a child as healthy, just to get him/her into a loving home in a country with good medical services. The good news is that some conditions that wouldn't be as evident in an infant or toddler will be more apparent in an older child, so it may be somewhat easier for you to pick up on certain problems, if they exist. As an example, fetal alcohol syndrome, which can affect learning and behavior, becomes most apparent after a child reaches school age. With Ukraine, you choose your own child; you do not get a referral. It is therefore EXTREMELY important, if you do not speak the language or have a good knowledge of medical terminology, to take someone with you to the country who can read the medical information and who can interpret accurately what the orphanage director and doctor may say while you are present. At the very least, you should send information to an adoption medicine specialist back home, although nothing beats having a knowledgeable person on site. With regard to disorders of mental and emotional health, you have to realize that relatively few children come into a foreign care system from a totally loving home, and then move quickly into an adoptive family. Yes, some do. And these children are the most likely to be emotionally healthy. But more will either come from an abusive or neglectful home, or from a home in which a parent is single, poor, and/or stressed out. And more will spend significant amounts of time in an orphanage before adoption. Even the best orphanages are not good places for kids, and too many orphanages are so underresourced that they can hire only "bottom of the barrel" people as staff. Physical, sexual, and psychological abuse are not unknown in orphanages. The longer a child is with an abusive, neglectful, or overwhelmed parent, and the longer he/she is in an orphanage, the greater is the risk that he/she will have emotional issues. So there is a definite risk with older child adoption. However, in general, the combination of love, structure, and (if needed) therapy will turn most of the children around. While we hear of internationally adopted children with severe reactive attachment disorder on TV -- the kids who set fires, toss the cat out the window, molest their siblings, and threaten their parents with knives -- it is, fortunately, quite rare. I think it is extremely positive that you are educating yourself about the risks of international adoption. Unfortunately, too many prospective parents don't do so, and too many homestudy and placement agencies don't insist on thorough parent preparation. And the worst case scenario is a parent who brings home a child with some issues, is unable to meet the child's needs, and disrupts the placement. I would strongly encourage you to contact some adoption medicine specialists and ask for information on any research that has been done on older child adoption from Ukraine. This may be useful as you try to quantify risk -- that is, to determine how likely it is that a child you adopt will have physical, mental, or emotional challenges. I would also suggest that you read anything you can get your hands on about how older children do in an adoptive family. But I would also urge you to look at the overall statistics on adoption. In the past five years, for example, about 20,000 children a year have been adopted by American citizens; sorry, I don't have Canadian statistics. The vast majority of these children have done fine and were "as represented" to the parents. Many of the parents are going back, or have gone back, to adopt again. This does not suggest a population of sick, emotionally damaged children. Moreover, Ukraine has been emerging as a very popular country for American adoptive parents. In 2003 and 2004, it was the sixth most popular country for Americans adopting children. Again, this does not suggest a country whose children have consistently been coming home with huge problems that the parents cannot handle. Another risk of intercountry adoption is that a given country could close or change its requirements drastically, while someone is in the process of adopting. The fact is that sovereign nations have the right to make whatever rules they deem necessary, for the protection of their children. We may not always like the rules or think that they are appropriate. But it is not our call to make. So, yes, Ukraine COULD close or change its rules before you complete an adoption. And it's fair to say that there have been rumors of change. At this point, Ukraine does not have a long track record of having a stable adoption system, comparable to that of Korea or even China. Let's face it. Korea has been placing children with foreign families for over 50 years, and has a highly organized and predictable system. And China's adoption law dates from the early '90s. If you are worried about stability of the process, you should probably identify a second -- and even a third -- country of interest, and then work with a provider that places children from both countries. That way, you can make a change easily, if Ukraine closes or changes its rules. It is much cheaper and more efficient to stay with the same provider, in such a case, than to start all over again with a new agency. As to your discomfort with the idea that your children will have to be registered with the Ukrainian government, and will be considered Ukrainian, as well as American, citizens until they are at least 18 and make a decision to renounce, you should know that it is a typical Eastern European policy. If you don't like it, you can always choose to adopt from countries like Korea, China, Guatemala, and Ethiopia. Once a child is adopted internationally from one of these countries, he/she loses his/her citizenship in that country. But I really think you should understand that the Eastern European countries have their policies for some very compelling reasons. First, there's tremendous anti-adoption sentiment in some of these countries. People still believe the old canards about folks adopting Ukrainian, Russian, and other children to use their organs for transplant, or to enslave them. Pro-adoption forces in the country use the post-placement reports to show these anti-adoption people that their beliefs are nonsense -- that the children are loved and nurtured. Second, there is tremendous national pride in countries like Ukraine. And people have been anti-adoption because they fear that children will lose an appreciation of what it means to be Ukrainian. So pro-adoption people have addressed the issue by saying that the children WILL remain Ukrainian by citizenship. And agencies often encourage the parents to mention, in their post-placement reports, the things that they are doing to teach their children about Ukraine and its culture. In addition, as someone said, the Ukrainians and other Eastern Europeans make these requirements because they truly love the children who could not be maintained in their birth families or with other families in their birth country. Yes, there are some negatives about having a child with dual citizenship. For example, when Americans adopt Russian children, and choose to bring their children back to visit their birth country, the children must enter Russia on a Russian passport, and re-enter the U.S. on an American passport. Russia does not allow American adoptees from that country to use their American passport to enter or travel within Russia. When the child is in Russia, on a Russian passport, he/she is subject to all Russian laws. This could, at least in theory, create some problems if he/she were accused of some crime, or if Russia tried to draft him/her into the army. While the child is also a U.S. citizen, and while the U.S. Embassy would certainly intervene on behalf of the child, and would probably prevail, he/she will have a little less protection than he/she might have if he/she had U.S. citizenship, alone. This makes some parents nervous, and I have heard some parents of Russian kids say that they will NOT do a birthland tour with their adopted child, or bring him/her to Russia when adopting a second child. You can always make this sort of decision if you choose, although I, personally, would not do so. I believe that birthland visits are a valuable tool in teaching children to respect and honor their heritage. I hope this helps. Sharon

I am a single female who will be adopting an older child from the Ukr ...stepping into the process... There are a number of single/professional woman that are in this simular category....and desire to adopt older children as opposed to infants or toddlers. Everyone has criteria in regards to the kind of child they are looking for. Adoption is not for the "faint at heart"....the process itself is full of stresses and uncertainties...it's taken me a year to make up my mind to adopt from the Ukr.... It is very traumatic to transplant a child from 1 culture to another... ...Loss of parents/siblings/friends can be very shocking...each child handles things differently...their past histories are likely to be very vague... Ukr-Canadians are very proud of their heritage!!! They actively donate millions of dollars in relief efforts ...Some are able to volunteer :D unselfishly in areas of medicine/economic development/teacher education... I would suggest taking every advantage of immersing yourself in the familiarity of the Ukr culture....language...all this will really help - when you bring your child home :) PS (SAK9645...above post)....has given a most eloquent and accurate reply to your question...

Thanks for the updated stats on older children. It puts into perspective the lack of alternatives that these children have. All we can hope is that as Ukraine tries to reform itself in the future, eventually these children will have opportunities for a better life. Unfortunately, there is still a long way to go.

Thank you everyone for all that very useful information. Three years of reports we can live with. If the Ukraine cared so deeply about these kids, they should have taken good enough care of them that jhiskid's depressing stats weren't true. We're all the more interested in saving a couple from the fate their country has prepared for them. Girls go quick, boys are harder to place, you say? Signs of North Americans' modern fixation with girls and disdain of all things masculine. Our boys will be brought up to never apologize for being male or masculine. Thanks especially for the medical info. We would not have thought of the medical interpreter! This should be interesting - when the time comes, we have to finance a trip to Ukraine for a Ukrainian-speaking doctor. That should be cheap!! On matters of 'heritage' - we can certainly appreciate that changing one's identity at age 10 must be traumatic, especially after what must already been a traumatic life so far. The boys will get a gentle introduction to being Canadian as we ween them slowly from things Ukranian until they are comfortable in their skins as Canadians without the burden of a hyphen. OK, more research.... Thanks again and best of luck to everyone.

Not sure where the idea would come from that US foster children have more mental issues then children raised in orphanges. I have adopted both us older children and older children whose original us adoptions disrupted due to their mental issues. Many EE adoptions do disrupt in the us. Agencies do not prepare parents well for the issues a previously institutionalized child faces. The kids are not just going to be uprooted from everything they know and just settle in in a short time and accept you as their new parents. I would suggest you research everything you can find on attachment, PTSD, and other issues common in older adoptions-both US and Foriegn placements. I would recommend checking out [url]www.radzebra.org[/url] [url]www.attachment.org[/url] Greg Keck and Regina Kupecky's book Adopting the Hurt Child is also a good resource. Older child adoptions can work out but please go in with your eyes wide open.

Hi, I recommend that you post your question on another bulletin board that has higher traffic and is run by a society primarily devoted to helping facilitate adoption to North America from Ukraine and Russia, "Families For Russian and Ukrainian Adoption." A lot of Ukraine parents have been adopting slightly older kids (I believe the average age of internationally adopted kids is around 4 y. old, but thousands of older kids and sibling groups in your age range are available in Ukraine)... they will tell you about their experiences: [url]http://www.frua.org/[/url] Good luck -- I think Ukraine is ideal for you! MM

Another good resource is the yahoo "adoption from ukraine" group

Thanks for the links. We're signing up to frua as a a start.

What about hosting? There are many, many groups that "host" kids in the United States - i.e. a sibling group of boys would come stay with you for a few weeks, you'd get to know each other and then you decide if you want to adopt them. I don't know if they have these hosting groups in Canada or not - I would imagine they do. Check into it! Also, even if you don't host yourselves, you can often meet kids that are here for hosting - it's a great way to meet kids and also to meet families that have adopted older children.

Hi, Just beware that hosting programs in Ukraine are not run by the same branch of the state that handles int'l adoption. Thus a hosting trip may include children who are not cleared for international adoption. Hosting in Ukraine is defined as a trip that is intended to improve the health of the children, and hosting programs as a result sometimes send over kids who are classified as sick and live in a children's home but are not on the national registry etc. MM

Most hosting programs know which kids are adoptable and which are not. They will tell you. The biggest risk is that you may host a child and then someone can come along and adopt the child before you get your appointment. However, this is very rare, since so few people want older kids. Also, I believe that children age 10 and up are asked if they want to be adopted by a particular family. So if you host and decide to adopt, and keep in contact with the child until you get an appontment at the NAC, then the child can say "no" on the off chance someone else asks for that child. I know this is how it works in Russia - someone please correct me if Ukraine is different. [EDITED]is a hosting program that is bringing kids from Ukraine for Christmas - you can check their website. Maybe they will know of Canadian hosting groups?