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I have been re-reading another thread because I have been thinking about a situation lately and I came across this quote:
Lexie
I have never heard ANYONE say they "beat their children". Even the most abusive parent will claim that it was a spanking that was needed. No one ever thinks they have crossed the line and are being abusive.
Ok...here's the situation. A couple I know is trying to conceive and we were talking about parenting, as he thinks I have some strange ideas. So, as the conversation progresses he said something that didn't sit well with me. He told about how his mom used corporal punishment on him and his brother...so, I'm thinking, "ok...lots of people spank, right...probably tough raising boys on your own, maybe she didn't know what else to do." However, he continues down this path until we get to the main point..."I have been hit with just about everything...chairs, belts...you name it, I was hit with it," he says. At this point all the attempts at rationalizing this had evaporated and I'm just listening, shocked by his matter-of-fact tone. He continues with telling me how he hated it at the time but that he understands now that "she was only doing it because she loved me and wanted what was best for me" and how he would have gotten himself into far worse trouble if she hadn't hit him with every imaginable object. :eek:
Now, the part that bothers me is this...he fully intends on using "corporal punishment" on their child. Previously, when I heard this, I thought he meant "spanking" the child as a form of punishment but now I worry that he means the same sort of situation that his mother used.
While I know that this issue is very polarizing, I'm not looking to start yet another debate about this...some people spank, some people don't...this isn't about that. This man has justified the outright abuse that he suffered at the hands of his mother...and that concerns me. I cannot ever picture him laying his hand on a child...but having children and the stress and exhaustion that come with it can lead some people to take out their frustration in ways they wouldn't have before.
Ok...so the real question: Am I blowing this out of proportion? I have real concerns for the children that this couple could have as I know that his wife also grew up in an abusive home which she also vehemently defends and sees no problem replicating.:confused:
I would be extremely concerned with thses people parenting a child. As you've said they have justified child abuse. Years ago it was pretty standard for a lot of parents to beat their children and they got away with it. What I don't understand is how parents think that just because something was done to them and they survived that it's OK to do it to a child today. If they do intend to abuse or in their words 'discipline' a child this way I do hope that someone is watching over the child and reports them to authorities. I don't see this as a choice parents have. It's illegal and hopefully no child will be subjected to this kind of ignorance. Maybe you can suggest they attend a parenting class, read a recent book on parenting, anything that might educate them as to how harmful their actions would be to a child.
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Oh, gosh. You know, when I first read this, I was thinking so many of us were spanked as kids, and learned that we would have responded even better if we were able to understand what it was our parents were spanking us for (in other words, if our parents took the extra time to sit us down and talk with us, on our level, and explained why what we did was wrong and hurtful and how to prevent it from happening again in the future... kinda like supernanny... yeah, love that lady!) anyway, to read on to your post was very disturbing. I can only imagine the horrific disturbance you are experiencing since you actually know these people.
I do not think you are over reacting. I think this person would benefit greatly from counseling, though I doubt he would go since he feels like he was brought up "right" and that there was nothing wrong with the punishments he received.
I think I would try to have further conversations with him. Ask him if he thinks it's possible that some kids don't need the kind of punishment that he felt he "needed" and was justified in receiving. Ask him if he can imagine ever hurting a helpless infant or a vulnerable child who is a fraction of his size. Ask him when he sees a cute child on tv that he is affected by if he could ever imagine his or her parents throwing a chair at her and if she would stand a chance.
I don't mean to tell you what to do or what to say, but if you can have further conversation with him, it may be helpful for him. I know these are very delicate issues and you may not want to risk your relationship with this couple, and I understand that some relationships can end with this sort of debate. I imagine though that if you don't say anything else, the relationship is over as it was anyway, now that you know this about them, even if you stay in contact, it will likely be a different dynamic than it was preabuse confession.
What does his spouse think of this? Did the spouse bat an eye when they heard his rationalizing this? So awful to hear these things.
AwaitingBeloved
What does his spouse think of this? Did the spouse bat an eye when they heard his rationalizing this? So awful to hear these things.
Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to have any reaction to his statements. I know that she was raised in a home that was ruled by fear and at times was physically abusive. I have spoken to her at length about this sort of thing and she generally concedes that this sort of behavior is wrong, but when it becomes too painful for her to reflect back on her experiences, she reverts back to justifying it based on good intentions. Again, in both cases we are not talking about spanking, it was striking with/throwing objects at/etc. out of anger. I'm not even sure how they equate that to discipline or punishement, as it does not fit the definition of either. I do not speak with the husband very often, but do speak to her whenever possible. I have tried for years to get her to seek counseling to help her work through her issues, but to no avail. This definitely concerns me because, during her previous marriage she had a 3 y/o step son and I, much to her dismay, stepped in during one of her "spankings"--which was actually her throwing a frightened child over her knee and smacking him on the bottom and legs repeatedly while she was OBVIOUSLY out of control...I'm not even sure she was aware that she was hitting a person at that point, she was just swinging wildly. It was during that episode that I found out that she had the potential to abuse a child. Fortunately for the scared little boy, I intervened and, once she calmed down (he had never actually done anything wrong, he was just rambling like a 3 y/o does) she spoke to him and found out that he didn't even know why he was being "spanked". I had hoped that that was a wake-up call for her. Sadly, I'm not sure that it was. There have been a few other times when she has called me with a bit of insight into her past...where she had an epiphany about how abuse had affected her life (and still is). Each time I encourage counseling and get hopeful for progress...unfortunately none of it has been fruitful yet. I pray that these people deal with these issues before they have a child. I am terribly distressed for what a child may have to deal with in their care. I love them very much but would not leave my children alone with them and am certainly scared for a kid that would be with them 24/7.
Jeffrey, I'm so sorry that you're at such a loss with this couple. I don't know what else to say. I wish all parents had to have a homestudy... the poor kids that may be born to them. You are a good friend to have tried, and to continue trying, to show them a better way. I hate to say it, but you may want to keep an extra close eye on things and you may have to get social services involved eventually if you suspect abuse. I would hate to think of any child growing up this way, and even worse, that they would feel that the abuse they received is justified. The cycle needs to end with them.
I just don't know what it will take.
I think children of abuse find it easier to rationalize their abuse in this way rather than accept that someone who was supposed to love and protect them crossed the line and caused harm. This is particularly true when the adult child continues a relationship with the abuser. It is deeply painful to accept the truth. Unfortunately I know from experience and once had similar thoughts to your friends. It all ended when I was faced with spanking my daughter for the first time. In that moment everything changed and I broke the cycle before it continued. Hopefully your friend will have his/her own moment of realization when faced with disciplining their own child and will choose a strategy that does not cross the line into abuse. I think we can all agree that hitting with "just about everything...chairs, belts...you name it" is abuse.
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I don't think you are over reacting NDN, given his statements and her statements, coupled with their childhood experiences and her behavior with her former step son. It's a pretty powerful message to say you wouldn't leave your child alone with them, do they have any idea?
I grew up in a home of NORMAL corporal punishment.
I think I had 2 spankings my entire life.
Both of them, I was THOROUGHLY warned, continued the behavior...SWAT on the buttock (and I mean SWAT, NOT slap or beat...probably hurt mom's emotions more than it hurt my hide), and that was it.
It took that shock to get me to understand that "HEY...I MEAN knock it off!".
So yes, NDN, I do totally understand and agree to your concerns.
As someone who has NOT been in an abusive home, there are red flags all over your intro post.
I would ask him what he defines as corporal punishment. Does he remember how his "corporal punishment" hurt him? Does he REALLY want to go THAT FAR?
As for me, I will not be doing corporal punishment, but only because, as a hopeful foster to adopt parent, these kids have probably experienced more on the extreme end of corporal punishment (most likely they were physically abused, ya know) than I would ever lay out, ALREADY.
As if a swat would make a dent in their behavior...you know?
If the child was my biological child, I'd do the adequate warning/slight swat...but ONLY in the most EXTREME situation...saved where I really needed to make a memorable point...like "don't run out into the street, I MEAN it"...but not for...don't color on the walls...
Make sense?
Kristi,
It makes sense. I'm just so worried about any child that might live with them because that is NOT what they are talking about. They both, so far, refuse to acknowledge the abuse that was perpetrated upon them as anything more than standard punishment. I don't care how well meaning...hitting someone with a chair??? I don't think that they consciously intend on abusing their children. However, I think that are VERY susceptible to repeated the pattern because they have made no efforts to prevent that.
To the poster that asked...YES they know that my children are not allowed alone with them. They pass it off as another one of my "psycho, overprotective mommy" rules.
It would hurt me very much to do it. However, if they do ever parent a child...and I suspect abuse...I will not hesitate to report it. It's the best I can do since they seem so adament about not listening to me about this.
Well, I can say this to you - the quote from the original thread was directed at me. I admit it. I've spanked my son. Spanked, open handed, on his bottom, hard enough to sting and leave an impression in his memory, NOT his bottom.
My son has NEVER been spanked in anger. My son was never left with so much as a pink mark. My son was spanked ONLY for unsafe behavior. My son is special needs. There was a time when he didn't understand 'unsafe', 'dangerous' or any of that. He understood a spank hurt, he wouldn't do something that would get him hurt. Also, no that he understands, he isn't spanked anymore. He hasn't been spanked in about 1 1/2 years or more.
That said, I see a lot of issues. First, discipline is a behavior guidance, punishment is a consequence.
Second, using a weapon - big red flag.
Their seeming 'justification' is rationalization. It is what they know. Unfortunately. And because it's what they know, that's they do.
They need serious exposure to a 'normal' family. Just because I've spanked my son, doesn't mean that I don't use other forms of discipline - positive reinforcement, praise, hugs, kisses. These are all disciplines - methods of guiding behavior. I personally don't subscribe to rewards for good behavior, but it's out there.
The only way that they will know that their 'normal' isn't normal, is with therapy coupled with exposure to really family life.
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how about a report from DHS or CPS on what consitutes abuse and is ILLEGAL.....delivered to them
Two fold reason to do this.
I have been told by other foster and adoptive parents that if you've ever not disclosed suspected abuse, then YOU can be deemed as "failure to protect" and YOU may not be granted children either, even if the abuse wasn't in your home, as well as the obvious reason to do it.
NDN
It would hurt me very much to do it. However, if they do ever parent a child...and I suspect abuse...I will not hesitate to report it. It's the best I can do since they seem so adament about not listening to me about this.
aspenhall
how about a report from DHS or CPS on what consitutes abuse and is ILLEGAL.....delivered to them
What an interesting idea! I hadn't thought about that. They live in a different state than me...so I would just call DHS in that state, ya think?
thats what I'd do when reason and logic fail....at least they will slightly pause at the ILLEGAL-ness of their activities/plans
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