A look into Nancy Thomas parenting

I guess I don't read this the same as you Dad. Perception is everything, but nowhere in the text do I see that the therapist was mocking the child. She said everything in a calm and gentle voice. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Nancy Thomas or Beth as some of my friends have, but from their accounts, neither would likely describe the session as you have.

Even in your quote, from what I remember of reading the book, it wasn't all they did. Even your quote talked about the therapist speaking lovingly to her in between asking her about her special powers. Just because they brought that up as something that helped, does not mean it was all they ever did in therapy. In fact it most likely wasn't something that happened every time or it would not have been a standout event that warrented time in the book. That book covered years and years of these peoples lives and the story was actually told twice, once by each person. It was just broken up. So of course there were other things, but as a parent you can see when something helps your child. I have a friend whose child has CF, she has to pound hard on this child's back a couple of times a day and do all sorts of things to her that the child hates. I once told her I didn't know if I could do that to my child. She told me I would if I had seen what she had seen and realized how much it helped the kid. I think some of what we are talking about here is the same. It looks different to someone who has not seen it work. I have not done holding on my kid, but if I did and I saw results, I would. My reasons for not doing it are different. My son has to be held and carried a lot becuase of his physical issues. I always use that to hug and kiss and tell him I love him. Because we have those opportunities built in to his life (as most babies and small children do) I don't have to make a special time to hold him and show him I will keep him safe. Just by carrying him everywhere and not dropping him I show him that. Were he not so tiny and disabled I would have to find other ways to show him those things. Of course you don't know if the holding was really a turning point in Beth's healing, but she does and her mom does cause they were there. They both said it helped, but because you don't like it, you choose not to beleive them.

Of course there are other things that happen. Once my daughter releases trauma, which is very painful for her, she may continue to rage due to the pain. Once she calms down (which could take 45 minutes), she is then in a mental place to process what just took place. Prior to this, she was just so angry that the anger took over and no healing could happen. We discuss the trauma and we help her put it in its proper place. She is open to healing at that point. This does not happen in one session, or even two. Its has to happen over and over. This is not for mildly traumatized children, but for those with severe PTSD. Dad, I suppose you think its better for my daughter to just keep it in? If this is the only way for her to release her hurt, why is that so bad? If your children can process their trauma without this type of therapy, I think that great. Mine cannot.I think you, again, are reading things out of context. You aren't looking at the big picture. You are focusing on the coercion part of the therapy, not the loving, healing that takes place. I find that sad.

I did meet NT, and she was very nice. I have no doubt that beth is a remarkable woman, I hope it doesnt seem like I am attacking these people at all. Personally, I have done and said things to my children that I have regretted. It doesnt mean I am an awful person. 'When love is not enough', by nancy thomas, I LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really do and have incorporated alot of those practices in my own parenting. For Christmas I gave my kids teachers the little book that she wrote for teachers. (not sure if anyone has seen it , but I highly recomend it for teachers that deal with special needs kids, its just basic facts, a tip on each page) I really am NOT attacking this woman. Lorraine, you are correct, she never claims to be anything but a parent. I shouldnt of said that. Because it does seem like I was questioning her credentials. but really I do respect the woman, and I never questioned her compassion for children. but....I always got a but...lol when I read dandelions, I actually was amazed on how the book made me feel, I was very uncomfortable. It was not an easy read, as they say. I felt at times that the therapist was pretty close to abusive. I got this empty feeling in my gut and it was a painful read FOR ME. Though some things were not abusive, I can also that to, but I am not questioning those techniques at all...But it still made me uncomfortable. There were just numerous things in the book that made me uncomfortable. Just ME. As a therapist, I do look for the value in certain practices, I have to be as objective as I can be when it comes to certain things, and yes, some of the techniques in dandelions made me go...ochhh. The weird thing is, they are not in any of the other books she wrote. I dont know why, but they were never mentioned again, at least I didnt read them again. I am not an expert on AT, as no one is, due to its constant change in practices. So I look at specific practices, not as a whole. There were times when I had to hold my screaming child in my arms for safty. I held him for hours while he tantrumed, then when he calmed down, i held him even longer and just rocked him. I was building attachment. very different then SOME of the practices in that book. I just feel, just me, that restraining a child for no reason other then have them fight, is not really forming any kind of attachement. At least that is what if seemed like to me. clearly from what beth said, that is what she needed. BUt I do think there could of been other ways without the restrain. as for the passage in the book, the only reason why i put that one in, is because when I opened the book, thats the one that was there. there were plenty of other things that were done that left me uncomfortalbe. If people have not read the book, then please read it, I would love your to hear your take on it. I dont doubt for a minute that these people honestly were trying to help this child. I do think that when CJ did the re-birthing on candice, that even though she died from it, that they honestly were doing it out of love for the child. I really do. NOt a doubt in my mind, but the child did die and it was directly from that practice. We can all agree on that. I think we can... SO they figured out that the practice wasnt a good idea, however, other parents swore by it, that re-birthing really helped their child. Just because it 'helps' doesnt mean its the write thing to do. Just because they brought that up as something that helped, does not mean it was all they ever did in therapy. Not sure how I can say this anymore then i have, but I really am not saying all of AT is bad. I just feel that some of the practices. Not sure how else to rewrite this, if anyone understands what I mean when I say that, can you please re-write it for me so they can understand it better. People keep bringing it up like I am challenging AT as a whole, I really am not. That is not what I am questioning. Its certain practices. If you found an underground of AT's doing re-birthing, would you do it?, knowing that other folks swore by it? some parents would do it if they thought it would help, but I would never suggest it, even if I have never done it. I still find it abusive. I have a friend whose child has CF, she has to pound hard on this child's back a couple of times a day and do all sorts of things to her that the child hates I am not talking about CF, I dont see the comparrison at all, they are like apples and oranges, they are both fruit, but very very different. I realize Im the lone wolf on this specific forum around certain AT practices, :( They both said it helped, but because you don't like it, you choose not to beleive them. I didnt say I didnt believe them. I said I think its on the cuff of emotional abuse. How is that not believing them. I do question if the 'other stuff' might of helped more. I think its to hard to actualy pinpoint what it was that changed everything. Was it the restraints out of love, was it the in your face approach out of love, was it the holding and rocking for comfort out of love, was it caring for the horses out of love, was it..etc......I cant really be sure. Its hard to really know. so please keep in my mind, that you guys all agree, and that is great, power in numbers, but I am a person on this side who is also a parent of special needs kids, who have been through the war zone and back also. And my kids war within themselves might never be over. so, just try to be a little more softer when posting, as i really didnt want this to turn into a us against dadfor2. If that is what people are feeling, then I have no problem locking the thread, just let me know. I dont want any enemies on here, well, I should say I dont want anymore enemies on here....:prop: here is the perfect example: certain posters here, from what they posted, makes me uncomfortable when I read them, when other posters who posted doesnt. Im not saying anyone is attacking me, but in certain posts it FEELS that way. DOnt get me wrong, I can take it, God knows I get use to it.....lol. This is not my first time at the rodeo...lol

This is not for mildly traumatized children, but for those with severe PTSD. wow, hold on, please lets not go to the comparing of whos child got it worse. I wont go into details, but you know what my kids have been though and to even insinuate they were midly abused, is way out of line. I cant believe you wrote that....:hissy: I know first hand what a servere traumatized child is like....as you know, my kids had one of the worst cases of child abuse that the state had seen. PLEASE PLEASE dont go there. with that said, No abuse is worse then any other. child is abuse is child abuse. we can debate that to if you want.

No, I would not do rebirthing. I don't see the benefit. And I have never had a therapist suggest it.However, AT is a very new area. Whenever something is new, its requires refining. I'm not at all saying that Candace Newmaker's life is dispensable. But whenever a new treatment comes out, there are often things that don't work and often people die. Did cancer treatments work on the first try? Was the first brain surgery successful? People have a problem with it because its children and the general public cannot accept that children are really this disturbed. I am flying out to Colorado to see my daughter's therapist next week. Get this - she asked for us to go. She said that she was feeling the past build up in her to the point that she was scared of her anger. As painful as it is, she wants to do it because the benefit is so great. Would she really ask for something that is abuse?

Settle down. I was not saying that at all. I was saying that this type of therapy would not be helpful for a child with less issues. You are the one who took it personally. I in no way intended that. I meant it for anyone reading this. I don't think this is appropriate therapy for a mildly attachment disorder child. Just wanted to make that clear.

Great point, Lorraine. My son's attachment issues were mild and therefore this type of therapy was never given to us as an option. I don't think it's about what abuse is worse, but how it's affected the child.

<< I do think that when CJ did the re-birthing on candice, that even though she died from it, that they honestly were doing it out of love for the child. I really do>> I had never heard of this story before now and so looked it up on the web and I have such uncomfortable feelings about this. They give an excerpt from the tape and it is disturbing to me. I am huge on safety and it seems to me that they should have erred on the side of caution. I guess the fact that it was 90 minutes long and the child had vomitted and defecated and stated she could not breathe. Manipulative or not that story bothers me, it seems like it was unsafe and after a shorter amount of time should have been abandoned. jmo

I don't think anyone can read the transcript of Candice's death and not be affected. I think we can all agree that it was a horrifying and tragic event, but what we are talking about is not rebirthing but holding, which is a different practice.

sorry if i jumped lorraine, i can get a tad deffensive when it comes to my kids. You know what, i dont think in a long time i even gave an update on my kids. so i will. they are both living at home....this is good news, but just because they are living at home, does not mean that the are healed or that everything is fine. That is further from the truth. Heck, if we were a 'normal' family, i wouldnt need to be on these forums anymore. my younger son is in a secluded classroom, we got news that he will be going to a inclussion classroom next year. Which means, half of his class wont be on IEP's. We are thrilled with this progress. He will be around 'normal' kids for the first time in a long time. He will still have aids, but he is stepping up. that doesnt mean he doesnt have any challenges. He just turned 10 and still has trouble with dressing himself. He cannot read at all, and cannot tie his shoes, no matter how much we work on it. he still can get pretty nasty when he doesnt get his way, and he still deals with attachment issues, but does love us. He also is still obsessed with fire, but we think we are safe. The fire in our house, really scared him. Traumatizing as it was. He still yells that we hate him when he gets in trouble and still on a daily basis that he wished he was dead. (but we know what that is about, but trauma kids say it more) His therapist, his teachers, and principal have all said that we are saints.....I dont mean to say that as a pat on our back, but because of my little ones issues, they are not sure they could of done it. Just to give you an idea on what he is still like. He is far from better. as for my older one, who mostly know the struggles we had to deal with him espcially, he has now been in our home longer he has ever been anywhere else.:banana: He will never be around any 'normal' kids, due to his behaviors and learning. I still have to hold onto his hand as we walk through the parking lot of a store. He doesnt have the capacity to think outside of his trauma filled world. He is a wonderful kid, and will give you his best toy for your birthday, doesnt think that you, as an adult would be interested in it, but to him,if it is special to him, then it must be special for everyone else. he will always be a challenge behavoiral due to his trauma. We still struggle with his outbursts, and we still struggle with him with just about everything. He does get violent but not like it use to be. He can not eat without gettinng food all over the floor and himself. He cannot dress himself yet, his clothes are always on backwards and he doesnt even know it. Our children are getting alot of services at school due to their special needs. We never had to convince the school that our childlren needed services, they offered them to us, knowing our kids. we were offered stuff we didnt even know existed. THey are now concerned that he may be scizophrenic as a direct result from the trauma, but they are waiting to see how that plays out. This is all trauma based. Again, with both our boys, people are amazed at why we adopted both of them as their needs are very high. We still dont have many people visit us, due to their behaviors. I know I have been saying that we are doing well, and that is because for us, we are doing well. We have no magic cures for my kids, so I have to be careful on what types of therapy I let my kids participate in due to their traumatic pasts. I have read from numerous posts on here, with your RAD kids, and this is not to compare, but I do get jealous. I wish my child can do half as much as some of your children can do. My son is 12 and he continues to read kindergartin books. well, he tries with some help from me. WHen I hear from you on your raging child and they sound so intuned with what they are feeling, i wish my kids can be that in tuned, but they are not. They have accepted our love, which is true. I believe for us, with the therapy that we are doing and the proper medication, that for them, it is working. I have accepted the fact that my kids will never be what I expected them to be, but that doesnt mean i gave up, but It means I have accepted that their limittations are what they are, their limitations. I cant turn them into something that they are just not going to be. but for us, by restraining him to get his trauma out, wouldnt work for him, because restraint is traumatising in it self and i dont think it would be benificial by re-traumitizing him. some do, thats fine. but i dont. So you see, though I am thrilled we are doing great, we are doing great for our standards. who knows, maybe if you had my kids, you would be grateful you have yours....lol. Everything is perspective. they still have alot of work to do. Staying out of hospitals and RTC's are great for us. I look at small steps, not big steps. They have grown alot and Im proud of them, but please dont anyone ever assume that we dont struggle anymore. That I dont understand. I do understand. and if they told me that restraining my child for no other reason to get his trauma out, I would not do it. Just as I back in the day would not do the re-birthing. It just doesnt feel right to me. just ME.

Two things - I think everyone would agree that rebirthing is not an appropriate form of therapy. It is not used anymore as far as I know. The therapy that we use is not rebirthing. The therapy that Nancy Thomas' therapist uses is not rebirthing.Next - Dad - who are you referring to? If this is "whose kid is worse" battle, don't start. At least your kids can attend school.

it seems like it was unsafe and after a shorter amount of time should have been abandoned. we all agree that this was not good. At the time, it was a new way of therapy to for traumatised kids who suffered from attachement disorder. Back then people swore that it worked. now there are other new forms of AT therapy, that do seem intrusive TO ME, but not to everyone else. So my comparrison to re-birthing, and some of the other methods, all came from a place of healing the child. Parents get desperate when looking for help. I feel that we need to be real careful on looking at somme of these types of therpies as some of them are intrusive. thats all I am saying.

This is not for mildly traumatized children, but for those with severe PTSD. If this is "whose kid is worse" battle what? I never said that my kids are worse. WHen I read your post, you were talking to me and I assumed my situation. As i explained to you, that if anyone here, you know my kids past, and to even insuate they might of been midly traumatized, is just absurb. When i gave my update, i wasnt comparing my kids to anyone, I was giving an update because I dont know half the people on this board anymore. When i left, (and please dnot say I should of stayed gone, im sure some are thinking about it.)t....lol They dont know the struggles that we went through. I have been told repeatdly that I "shouldnt judge, that until i parent a child like 'mine' " they tell me this...:hissy: can you imagine lorraine how it would feel, with all the hard work you have done, for posters to tell you that "you have no idea what its like to parent a child with special needs"...:hissy: I can assure you, it wont make you feel good. I never bothered to go into details with every single poster who said that to me, because quite honest, there were enough folks out here to know how ridicoulous that statement was. so here was my post, here is my family who have no idea who I am....here is where we are at, its not perfect. this is not about which kid is worse at all, this is claiming my seat in the special needs section. Im tired of hearing I dont know what its like.....I do.

You have a seat in the special needs section. I never disputed that. I never have said that you didn't know what it was like. This has become a pissing contest and thats silly.Lets get back to the original topic. NT parenting.