How do you deal with flat out defiance in a teen?

Defiant teens are hard. She probably feels as if she is "too old" to be treated like a child, although she is acting like a toddler. How do you go about determining consequences for actions? They are all old enough to participate in creating their own - before an incident happens. Sit down with them all and have them help you and your wife create a behavior chart (they can even create a name for it) -I would make it for good and bad behaviors. One side will show actions the other side rewards and consequences. They may tend to come up with harder consequences than you as parents would have, but make them reasonable of course. That way when they defy you the consequences are already set in place. Then you can calmly say - "Oh, so you don't want to use any electronics for the rest of the day" or "So, it looks like you need more sleep, as your actions just now say that you earned yourself going to bed a half hour earlier." Something like that. How does the teen feel about being adopted? Was she a caregiver for her siblings before coming into your home? If she as she might feel displaced and is having a hard time just being a kid.

I think that definitely comes into play at times, but I'm not sure that's really part of this defiance issue. She's usually quite vocal when she thinks we're treating her like a baby and she really doesn't mention it during these times. I can see how this could be helpful and we really don't have anything like this now. We've tried talking to them about fair consequences, but we haven't really gotten anything useful. Either they'll refuse to talk at all, or they'll suggest something completely unreasonable (no TV for the rest of my life). Even so, even if it means that my wife and I need to come up with all of the consequences I can see how a chart might be helpful All three of them are for the adoption. All of them have yelled out things like "I wish you weren't my parents" or "I wish we would never get adopted" in the heat of the moment when they are upset, but during calm times whenever we ask them if they want to be adopted or if they want us to be their parents they always answer yes. She definitely was a caregiver for her siblings before they were taken into the system and I think there is definitely some of that at play, however, they were in the system for about 2 years before they came into our house and the girl was in a separate foster home than her brothers, so it's not like she was in that parenting role recently, but even so, to some extent, that's the only way she knows to relate to her brothers. Thanks for the ideas:)

I am not a fan of drama so I tend to go with this approach. If they say no to something I asked I politely say "Ok, no problem. I hope you don't need me to do anything anytime soon." then I go back to what I was doing & ignore them. They need a ride...nope. Want lunch money...nope Need anything...Oh bummer. Too bad I can't help you. They are in a power struggle & I won't fight so it just makes the struggle pointless. They just keep losing. After a couple weeks they typically give up....and I have a kid with ODD so that's impressive. The trick is just to be calm & express concern when you can't do what they want. Like "I'm so sorry, I would have loved to drive you to the mall"

:love: Soup nazi:love: .....you have obviously :arrow: parented teens :arrow: before!!! Best advice. Op-if you have not parented teens I would read "parenting teens with love and logic". I don't agree with all of it but I feel like the book is a good jumping off point.

Soupnazi those were my thoughts. There are some books by Kevin Leman that might help. The key is to be calm even though you may want to scream & choke them :eek: just joking!!! When they say no remind them that is their choice. When they need something later remind them of their earlier choice not to mind you.. calmly & tell them no. They are a little less kid & a little more adult everyday, but we need to help them transition into a responsible adult who respects authority. I highly recommend reading his books!!! I have worked with teens for 20 yrs & nothing surprises me. Now my boys are both teens & it is different living day & night with them. It can be a daily battle :-)

Set up rewards for good behavior. They work better than "take-aways". Escalating series, little ones for a day or 2, medium, big for a long stretch of the behavior that's good. Here's the deal. For most of us, fitting in feels good. For teens, it feels "wrong". Teens are supposed to be gaining independence. They need to shrug off, shed parental protection. And --truly!-- they do! So set up rewards for true, positive independence vs defiance. She wants to load & unload dishwasher in silence with no pesky adults or pesky kid brothers in kitchen at Midnite? Who cares? Maybe you think that's too late, try compromise at 11. Myself, if she's awake in her room (very very very likely) or kitchen, what's the diff? ASK her what changes she wants in life in your home. Step towards her. I'm not saying stock cupboards with licorice & make spaghetti with that as noodles. Just step towards her. Help her move to independence. Learn cooking. Maybe make a meal in privacy in kitchen for whole family. You're on tap to answer questions, NOT to hover, direct. Etc with other life aspects. Can she go to store with shopping list? Small amount of items/cash? Show change, explain how she watched cashier to make sure it was right. Give extra, separate $ to get something for herself. Read: Positive Discipline by Jane Nelson "how to talk so kIds will Listen, how to listen so kids will Talk" by Farber/Mazleish. The "parenting bible". Talk to parents if teens about how things change for teens. Read Maybe Days description of how she handled her teen mom. Same for PinkStar412. You'll be mire a "mentor" to her than parent. Clock can't be turned back...& she NEEDS kind, caring mentors. May success find you all.

Thanks for the replies, and essentially that's how I handled it. I asked her several times to go to her room and finally I just let her know that there would be a consequence for this and turned and left, staying calm the whole time. Later this afternoon my aunt came to take her brothers to a movie to get them out of the house for a little while while I worked. She asked if she could go to the movie as well and I told her that she could not go because of her disobedience this morning. Unfortunately that set off a major tantrum with cursing and yelling and throwing some things, but luckily my aunt left with the boys before it got really bad and again I stayed calm and locked myself in my room for a while so I could get some work done. She's stopped tantruming, but is still not happy. We'll see how tonight goes:/

I have a 15 year old who can give me a run for my money. Best advice? Ignore, ignore, ignore. Unless someone is getting hurt, ignore it. Later, when things are calmer, you can say "I love how kind you were to Andy when you offered to read him that book. I think it really hurts him when you yell at him. I don't approve of it because it doesn't ever help a situation. You're a great big sister. What can we do to help this?" My 15 old is convinced that my 8 year old's sole purpose in life is to drive her mad. Everything the 8 year old does is "annoying". "Stop talking! You're so annoying". "Why are you singing that? You are SO annoying!!!". I hate to not get involved but when I get in the middle of it, nothing good comes of it. I have to step back and wait until M is in a more receptive mood. And 8 year olds are good at deviling an older sibling. You never know what they did to provoke the teen (although it takes little to nothing to provoke a teenage). She can be just as 'unfriendly' towards me. "My gosh, you are SO ANNOYING!!!!" as she stomps through the house. Later, at the grocery store if she asks for something, I'll say "Okay. But I don't know if this makes me more annoying or less annoying". Talking about it or joking about it later can help. But when she's in a mood, just steer clear. You won't win in a battle of the wills. No matter what you do or what you take, she will try to "one up" you. She has more stamina than you. Trust me. She'll figure out ways to "get back" at you. She'll outlast you. You'll both end up in tears. You have to walk away and talk about it later.

Teen girls are the worst...I had one girl that was 17 & would throw a tantrum like a little kid. She was bi-polar so that just kicked it up a notch. After a nuclear meltdown over not having oreos or something ridiculous she said something insulting to me. So I tossed my self on the couch just like she did flailing around & wailed. She stood there with her mouth open, eyes wide. Mid flip out I stopped sat up looked at her & said..."Oh I thought this is how we were reacting to stuff now." shrugged & walked out of the room. I never saw on more flip out from that kid...not even a little. However don't do this in front of other kids! lol Oh I forgot you might want to break out a video camera every time they wig out. That usually stops a rage cold turkey.

the best advice I ever got: do not engage. Teens need to learn that life is full of consequences and rewards for every choice they make. If she has been doing well, take her out to starbucks out of the blue and tell her you just thought she deserved it for being so mature (my kids both LOVE that because its an adult kind of rewrd). Right now, she is not only trying to test normal boundaries, but figure out where the boundaries are in a new environment. If she is emotionally mature, you can have a 1 on 1 talk with her. I encourage my kids to feel like if they disagree withme, they can voice that, as long as it is in a respectful & appropriate way.

I'm by no means an expert with teens, but from what I've learned, teens in the foster care system are different than your average teen so it takes some trial and error to figure out what works. Just using the typical consequences may not be effective if you have a teen who is very accustom to being independent, caring for her younger siblings and having no parental involvement. That was the case with my former 16 yo FD who was very belligerent and didn't care what I said or about any consequences. She went ahead and did whatever she wanted, and if she wanted to go to the mall, she took the bus. Not engaging is another good idea, especially since you said she is sometimes aggressive and hits her brothers. I'd be careful not to antagonize anyone like that. there were times that I could see the hatred in the 16 year old's eyes and she so desperately wanted to attack me that I was very afraid of her.

I'm by no means an expert with teens, but from what I've learned, teens in the foster care system are different than your average teen so it takes some trial and error to figure out what works. Just using the typical consequences may not be effective if you have a teen who is very accustom to being independent, caring for her younger siblings and having no parental involvement. That was the case with my former 16 yo FD who was very belligerent and didn't care what I said or about any consequences. She went ahead and did whatever she wanted, and if she wanted to go to the mall, she took the bus. Not engaging is another good idea, especially since you said she is sometimes aggressive and hits her brothers. I'd be careful not to antagonize anyone like that. there were times that I could see the hatred in the 16 year old's eyes and I was very afraid of her. Before doing something like video taping her having a tantrum, I would be careful your FD won't turn violent.

Soup Nazi and I obviously need to hang out- because YES to everything she said! Those are the same techniques I use with Blue. Ignore, don't engage- and suddenly it's not an issue anymore. Also rewards for good behavior work much better than consequences.We set goals with rewards for accomplishing the goals. We have a family meeting once a week where we each talk about our monthly and weekly goals. Weekly goals get small things- monthly goals get bigger things. We ALL set them and agree to each other's goals. So my weekly goal is to wake up a half hour before the kids do all week, my monthly goal is to be on time to every appointment and event. If I accomplish my weekly goal- I get a lunch date free of kids. If I accomplish my monthly goal I get new seat covers for the truck in my color choice.For example, Blue's biggest issues are at school. Granted, they rarely handle things the way I would- but she needs to learn how to be okay even in bad situations.So her current monthly goal is not to get in any trouble at school and she gets a cell phone.Her weekly goal is to earn all of her "points" in school and she gets to pick what we do for family day.So she calls at school upset and on the verge of meltdown. So instead of saying "I'm going to give you a consequence" I say "What is you goal this month?" She repeats it. "And what happens when you reach that goal?" She tells me. "So we arent going to have any problems in school right?"She agrees. Problem solved.Motivation works much much better than discipline...at least from my experience.

Thanks again for the ideas, guys. We definitely have problems with hitting and punching from all three kids and all five of us have had bruises at times from one or more of the kids, but so far at least, the violence hasn't gotten to the point where we fear for our or our kid's lives... Or even that they would get hurt badly enough that anyone would need to go to the hospital. It's definitely something we are working very hard on to stop because we don't want it to get any worse (and it's in no way acceptable where it is now), but it could be much worse than it is. Ignoring them can be difficult at times because even if my wife and I leave the room to ignore them we can't always get the kids apart and we're afraid that they might hurt each other. Yesterday, though, ignoring worked pretty well. After my aunt left with the boys it was just my daughter and I home. I went into my room to work and ignored her. She got her radio and played it quite loudly in the hall near my room, but I just ignored it. My wife got home a little while after that and told her that the radio was too loud. She gave her a short time to turn it down and when she didn't she just took the radio into our room with us. An hour later when we came out our daughter was asleep on the couch and in a better mood when she woke up. The funny thing was that later that night she was telling me what happened and she said "Once I realized that I couldn't upset my parents I just layed on the couch and fell asleep". I had to try very hard not to laugh as I heard that. We're still working to understand her. Much of the time she can be very open and honest and we can talk about what happened and she will admit that she knows that she had a bad attitude or that she should have obeyed us. It's possible that she's just telling us what she wants us to hear, but I really think she is being honest. But then once she gets into one of her moods all that is out the window and she is just outright defiant.

I agree with Pink and Soup Nazi. I ignore what I can, reward, and consequences are short lived and controlled by the kid. Ex: Sure you can go on the computer as soon as your chores are done to my standards. I rarely have a consequence into the next day, except when the kid makes it so. I had a kid break a door slamming and hitting it, so it came off the hinges and we set him up in his room to fix it. Hubby showed him what to do for each part (stripping the wood, sanding, gluing and clamping, priming and repainting it). Could have been done in a few days (with time for drying and such). He couldn't do anything until it was done. It took almost 2 months or so. We hung a curtain on his doorway for privacy and he was the only kid and his room was on a different floor. DCF came in and asked where the door was. We pointed to it in his room. DCF asked how long til he got it back. We said as soon as he is done. They said okay. I have also done the "I don't feel like taking you anywhere." thing if they "don't feel like" helping me. I also find writing things helps avoid conflict. Good luck. Teens can he FUN!