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I have a rather interesting situation recently, I spoke to my daughter֒s mother and we talked about things that are going on. Our relationship has been a struggle since events that took place almost a year ago. I have tried hard to deal with them in my own way, but I admit, I am having a difficult time putting things behind me, especially since certain things that created the issuesђ we have now are still taking place.
At any rate, during this discussion, she shared with a discussion that my daughters father had with her while she was visiting him. The topic is polarized, the message (at least, what I think the message was) is something I support Җ however the method of delivery etc really bothers me
In a nutshell, he basically said that women who have sex before marriage are whores and are unworthy of children. He also said they would forever be losers, etc and that they had zero self worth, because they had no worth to speak of (to themselves or others).
I think, what he was trying to say, was that premarital sex is a bad idea Ŗ at least I think so. I dont disagree.
What resulted is M applying this to me.
Prior to the events which took place last year, we had a fairly decent one on one relationship. We talked via e-mail and IM and even on the phone from time to time Җ but events since then have resulted in our communication basically coming to a halt. The bottom line, she has enough to deal with and while I want to be there and I am there for her if she needs someone to talk to, regardless of what has happened in the past, she needs to focus on things in her everyday life and put adoptionђ on the back burner for a while, I get that.
What I wasnt prepared for was being used as a pawn in the difficulties going on in her family Җ basically, I have become a party to a very nasty, very vengeful and very difficult divorce not only is one parent bashing the other ֖ one of them is bashing me too. Unlike the other parent, I am unable to defend myself, because I have waited on the sidelines for her to come to me rather than pushing myself on her.
I know, for a fact, that one party is blatantly bashing me and I think ֖ or at least I hope M is smart enough to see past all of that and look at the realities of the situation. However, it is the inadvertent (or heck, maybe it isn֒t inadvertent) blows I seem to be taking, which seem to be altering her view of who I am.
Getting down to brass tacks Mom mentioned me or something about me and M was real nasty in her response (using some of the words I used above that dad used when discussing premarital sex).
Again, I don֒t disagree with the overall message (although, I do disagree if this is the only type of sex education that is going on, given the history she has to deal with (I will NOT defend this, dont call it into question, I have EVERY right to disagree)!) but I do disagree with its delivery and I very much disagree with the fact that little effort is being done to discuss the realities of ґthe way it went down.
I know this is likely something other birth mothers in open adoption have had to deal with Җ although, I know there are very few of you guys here who have children in their teens (Brenda, I know, had a son but I wonder if it is the same with a son? I would guess that it would be similar, from the male perspective, but I don֒t know. Brenda?)
My dilemma is more along the lines of, how do I fix this without totally doing to dad what he did to me (discounting everything about him and making him look like a huge BOOB) I honestly feel like I shouldn֒t HAVE to do anything but as I said above, it֒s nasty, dirty and vengeful and I doubt I֒m going to find that dad has fixed this, simply because of other things hes done, which indicate heҒs trying to get me to drop out of their lives even though he seems to be the only one who wishes that ֖ at least he used to be now I֒m not so sure about M.
Thoughts?
Direct contact with Dad is out of the question.
Mom, I would venture to guess, would be unwilling to fixђ this as it would appear she֒d be flying in the faceђ of his parenting thus resulting in one more ֑nail in the coffin of their cooperative parenting agreement.
Am I off base in my thinking that I just need to document things Җ write letters, keep a journal and wait till shes ready Җ even if thats 20 years from now?
ItҒs just so hard to think about not having her in my life on some level. I will, of course, respect her desires and I have said all along (from my first interactions in the adoption community) that she is the driver in this relationship ֖ if she decides shes done with the ride, then thatҒs that it֒s her decision to make and as hard as it is (or will be) I will respect her right to make that decision and allow her the ability to decide what she wants from me, if anything at all.
But Im crushed. Deeply, mortally and unshakably crushed.
Oh, Brandy, I am so sorry this is happening to you and M. It is soooo not fair, to say the least. Divorce seems to bring out the worst in some people, and it sounds like M's dad is one of those people.
I'm also wondering if it's possible that M is actually angry deep inside that you pulled back this year. Is that a possibility? I know her amom has some severe problems, and I bet that M felt safe last year when the two of them were living in your home. Could she be angry that she's no longer with you?
I remember when I was a child, I got really angry with my father for a long time. This was because when my parents got divorced, he left me there with my mother, who had some severe psychological problems. Although I knew in my head that the court had given my mom full custody, I still blamed my dad for leaving me with her. Does that make any sense?
Another thing I just thought about... When a kid's parents are going through a divorce, there is an awful lot of anger and confusion inside the child. M may feel safer by being angry with you instead of her parents. Just a thought...
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Brandy, I am sorry this has happened, and do feel as if this was exactly what he wanted to come from his childish remarks. This in no way is exceptable "sex-ed" type discussion. I most definately nip this in the bud, by talking to M and letting her know, just how much this has bothered you. You will not feel better until you do, and this obviously is not going away. I think one must forgive the father, after all I do not believe there is a medication for anal-rentention! Please talk to M, you will feel better getting this out. :cheer:
Oh Brandy!
What can you do? I believe you live by example. First, your daughter knows YOU. She knows that you are good woman and not a whore. If anything she knows as does her father that you not only are you worthy of children but that her life would have been very different with you.
Your intelligence, success and stability are a threat to this man. Men have been calling women whores and worse since the beginning of time. Its his way of keeping you in your place; his way of trying to feel superior to you. Perhaps it is his way of trying to hold on to his daughter. Teen years are difficult during the best of times. Name calling is not a way to keep a young woman from making the decision to have sex. If fact, IҒd venture to say that the not-s-subtle attack on her self esteem would have the opposite effect. Ultimately an attack on you is an attack on her.
So, what can you do? Continue to be there when shes ready. Keep your journal. Be prepared for the day when she comes back. She will. You are too much a part, a good part, of her life for her to keep an emotional distance forever.
Unfortunately, when a father makes comments like that M is going to remember them. If she does ever wind up in a situation where she is pregnant before marriage, she will never forget those words. That is not sex ed that is called guilt and shame and looking at many of the ladies on this board, it doesn't work. I have lived through the ugly divorce and 35 years later my parents are still angry. It must be horrible for you to be in the midst of this. I suggest you do what you mentioned. Write a journal, keep records so in the future when M is ready you can tell her your side. In the meantime stay out of the controversy and let them act like children, just don't participate.
Brandy, I am so sorry that you have to deal (at least "inadvertently") with this BOOB. I hate to "minimize" what is going on here, but your daughter is a teenager and teenagers are notoriously "nasty" to their parents (and I don't think they "discriminate" between birth and adoptive, I bet). She may be "angry" with you right now and using some of the nonsense he spews to "justify" it, etc.
I am not a parent of a teenager yet (thank gosh!) but I think you just lead by example and by keeping the lines of communication with your daughter open and letting her know you will always be there. I don't think it's bad to "document" what is going on...if nothing else for when hopefully she is "through" this phase and you can talk to her about what happened, etc.
Hang in there!!
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I am so sorry that you are squarely in the middle of this very ugly situation.
I recently heard an expert on children of divorce say that when one parent disparages another it is an insult to the child...to the child's very dna because they are part of that person.
I have kept that in mind as an adoptive parent. Everything that I say about my son's first parents will be something he will internalize about himself, because he is a part of them, of their dna. My biggest worry for your daughter is that she will feel not only are you are unworthy, but as an extension, so is she. She will feel the very way she came to be is tainted, and that is a shame because she should be seen as a blessing. Maybe this is how to approach the mom if you choose to do so.
Okay, kind of a vent but...I for one don't think premarital sex is wrong. I think it is best to delay until late teens (college age) because I don't want my child to deal with adult problems at a young age. But as a woman who didn't get married until I was 36, I am happy celebacy wasn't my only option! Of course I respect those whose religious beliefs oppose sex before marriage, but I reject the idea that all sex outside of marriage is immoral or bad.
Thanks for the feedback guys. Mostly, I really needed to vent some and get things off my chest. It frustrates me that I'm even involved - but I am...and I am because I care...and I care because someone has to...ya know?
Even if you remove yourself from this analogy....it is a really awful and hurtful thing to say!!
Sure for you it takes on different importance....but seriously, what does this say about YOUR DAUGHTER should she chose to have premarital sex? He didn't say teen sex (not that if he had it would be ok) ...premarital sex. And sure, we all think it's ideal to wait until marriage - but for MOST this does not happen.
I think its just another way to instill shame into our daughters.
I'm so sorry you are having to deal with yet another stupid issue.
Leigh131313
Even if you remove yourself from this analogy....it is a really awful and hurtful thing to say!!
Sure for you it takes on different importance....but seriously, what does this say about YOUR DAUGHTER should she chose to have premarital sex? He didn't say teen sex (not that if he had it would be ok) ...premarital sex. And sure, we all think it's ideal to wait until marriage - but for MOST this does not happen.
I think its just another way to instill shame into our daughters.
I'm so sorry you are having to deal with yet another stupid issue.
Sorry to do the "I agree with what she said" thing, but really I do agree with what Leigh said. Regardless of who adad was talking about what he said was rude and uncalled for.
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In a nutshell, he basically said that women who have sex before marriage are whores and are unworthy of children. He also said they would forever be losers, etc and that they had zero self worth, because they had no worth to speak of (to themselves or others).
Well, then that would apply to me and just about every other woman I know, plus lots of guys, too! I wonder what his view is of MEN who have sex before marriage. Funny how he left that out of the equation.
Perhaps he'd be interested in the following information from the Guttmacher Institute:
"PREMARITAL SEX IS NEARLY UNIVERSAL AMONG AMERICANS, AND HAS BEEN FOR DECADES
The vast majority of Americans have sex before marriage, including those who abstained from sex during their teenage years, according to “Trends in Premarital Sex in the United States, 1954–2003,” by Lawrence B. Finer, published in the January/February 2007 issue of Public Health Reports. Further, contrary to the public perception that premarital sex is much more common now than in the past, the study shows that even among women who were born in the 1940s, nearly nine in 10 had sex before marriage.
The new study uses data from several rounds of the federal National Survey of Family Growth to examine sexual behavior before marriage, and how it has changed over time. According to the analysis, by age 44, 99% of respondents had had sex, and 95% had done so before marriage. Even among those who abstained from sex until age 20 or older, 81% had had premarital sex by age 44."
I understand it is his prerogative if he wants to teach his daughter abstinence, but he's going about it the wrong way to label women who do engage in sex before marriage as whores and losers who are unworthy of children! And the reality is most people will have sex before marriage. That would mean the vast majority of Americans fit his description (not to mention those in other countries that weren't part of the study, but no doubt engage in premarital sex). I wonder if HE was a virgin when he married, or if his wife was. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't and would bet many of his friends and family members were not, either. So would he say they are sluts and losers, too?
The guy sounds like an idiot, and I'm sorry he has this view of women. Very misogynistic to say the least. I'm not sure that there is anything you CAN do about this to fix it, and I'm not clear on what the situation is with your daughter, how old she is, etc., but I hope your daugther understands that you are a good person despite what her dad says about women who have had premarital sex, and you (or any other woman) shouldn't be judged in this manner. I'd try to stay out of the middle of it because if you tell your daughter what her dad said upset you and why, then she will be in the middle of you and him. It's really a tough call.
I wonder what his view is of MEN who have sex before marriage. Funny how he left that out of the equation.
Likely not the same, considering he did engage in sex before marriage with someone other than the woman he married.
I just read this. I want to give a thoughtful answer, but my synapses stop firing after seven. I will answer in the morning.
I will say that there is no excuse for his behavior. There are plenty of other ways to get an abstinance message across.
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I think you need to write a letter to her now. She needs to know her full story (and yours) I would also address her Dad's remarks. You can agree with him that pre-marital sex is not a desirable thing, that sometimes people make poor choices, but that does not make them bad people. I would be more than happy to go over a letter with you.
The bottom line is that you need to defend yourself now. These comments from her father are effecting her now. Give her the real story and then let her process it.
My son is now 24. We went through a couple of questioning periods. However, his adoptive parents were always supportive of me. It makes a big difference.
I am so sorry they are dragging you into this and that your daughter is being pulled in so many directions.