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My husband is two years into his reunion with his 32 year old daughter. She doesn't live local. We have gone to see her and her family several times and they have come to our home several times. They have also made two of the week long family camping trips my husband's family has every year.
I am going to preface with sideways jabs have always been a button pusher with me. I have always felt that taking those kind of jabs with anyone is chicken ---- and if you have a problem, just come out with it. People who do the sideways jabs don't own it when they do it. I have always felt that people who do that are a waste of my energy. Nothing is resolved with that kind of approach to a problem.
I'm saying that because the problem I have is feeling stuck in having to take the jabs and I don't know how to handle it. I can't picture anyone in my family doing that but If there were anyone in my family that did it, I would call them on it. We have strong enough relationships that I could forgive the jabs and they could take me calling the bs. Outside of my family, I still call it when I see it but they can take it or leave it. I don't feel that I have to take it.
When my husband's daughter was initially taking the little jabs at me, I had patience with it. I thought she had some anger she wasn't dealing with and it was less threatening to come at me with it than it was my husband. There was one time that was particularly uncomfortable, though, and she was very animated to make sure she delivered the jab well. I had talked to my husband about that one and we thought it was best if he talked to her about it and see why she is having a problem with me. My husband asked her about it a few days later and she told him she didn't say it. My husband told me I must have misunderstood her. I was livid. First that she lied about it, and then that my husband believed her. I don't lie to him and I'm not dramatic. I left the house to cool off because I was so angry. His daughter called my cell phone while I was gone but I was too angry to talk to her at that point. I called later when I was cooled off. She told me that she didn't say what she said. I said nothing more to her than, "if you remember, there were about 5 other people standing there when you said it". Suddenly her memory came back and she told me she only said it because I had hurt her feelings. The way she said I had hurt her feelings because I had referred to myself as her stepmom but she thinks of me as her real mom. That, too, was not true but I let it go. I have seen her outright lie about something one time since that incident.
My husband has no interest in meeting with her mom. She was raised by her bmom and adopted by her stepdad. There were promises made when they were teenagers and she didn't keep her promises so he partly blames her that he had no relationship with his daughter. I didn't want to meet her in the beginning. I had enough on my plate that I didn't feel that I was emotionally capable of dealing with her mom, too. I got past that and was open to it. I had told my husband that he made mistakes and her mom had made mistakes and they were both kids doing the best each of them knew how at the time. I thought he should let go of it and move on. His daughter was pushing hard for them to meet and I didn't understand why but thought it was probably a normal desire in her situation. My husband had his feet dug in. On top of how he feels about her mom, he just didn't see why it was necessary. I was on the opposite side that if it was important to her, then it would be good for her but felt like it was his situation and his call.
Her mom and her adad divorced when she was 15. Her mom has remarried but she doesn't like her mom's husband at all.
His daughter started pushing my husband's mom and one of his sister's to make contact with her mom. My sister-in-law and her mom were acquantances in high school. At the time, I didn't think much about why she was pushing so hard. I still thought it was normal.
Then there was something said this last camping trip that made me think that she resents me being there and thinks it should be her mom that's there.
Christmas is a huge deal at our house and all of our kids and their families spend the night at our house on Xmas Eve. Santa comes for the grandkids at our house. Year before last, my husband's daughter wanted to come for Christmas but under the condition that she could bring her mom and her mom could stay at our house. My husband said no so she didn't come.
She told me a few weeks ago that she wants her mom and my husband to be together. That wasn't at all a surprise to me. I had by then put a bunch of stuff she has said together and figured that she felt that way. It couldn't have been a week before that I thought about her feeling that way and that I thought she may very well tell me she felt that way. I was trying to think of an appropriate response if she ever did that. I got distracted and only a week later and there we were and I wasn't prepared with an appropriate response. I didn't know what to say. I think I didn't say anything at all.
I talked to my husband later that night and learned that she had already told him the same thing.
There have been a couple of times that she asked my husband if he would mind if she invited her mom to dinner while we were there and my husband told her he didn't want to have dinner with her mom. I learned through that phone call that she was going to have her mom over anyway and called her when we got there but her mom wouldn't go. During that phone call she was pushing and pushing for me to call her mom. I told her that I wouldn't because this was my husband's decision. She suggested that I call her mom and not tell my husband that I did it. I told her I wouldn't disrespect him like that.
I had been able to reason that she had probably thought about her mom and her bdad being together for a long time and it would be very easy for her to idealize it. I chose not to take it personally. However, I put a bunch of pieces together from previous conversations, things I've heard her say to my husband, the push to establish communication with her mom, some things my husband shared with me, and the last conversation we had and realized she isn't just fantasizing about it. She is proactively trying to make it happen. I know beyond doubt that she truly believes that if they were to get in the same room, they would see how much they have in common, sparks would fly and they would leave their spouses and live happily ever after.
My husband will not go to visit her without me. It's not about her. It's just how my husband is and he won't go at all if I won't go with him. He is as stubborn as they come and has no bend with this.
When they come here, they stay in our home.
I am struggling with not wanting to take the jabs anymore and feeling a lack of respect for me and for my marriage. My husband is afraid of 'blowing her out of the water'. He sure can take a stand when it comes to being in the same room with her mom without worrying about blowing her out of the water but not when it comes to the jabs at me. I have been walking on egg shells, not wanting to be responsible for 'blowing her out of the water' but feeling a lot of resentment for rolling over on all of this. She doesn't have to like me. She doesn't have to be happy that I'm married to my husband, but I don't think she gets the priviledge of disrespecting me and my marriage, especially trying to use me as means to her ends, and do this while in MY home. I don't want to go to her home anymore but my husband won't go if I don't. I don't want to come between his relationship with his daughter and I feel up against a wall.
Suggestions or input please.
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I can see her having this fantasy if she was 8. At her age, and especially being married, it seems very off to me. So then I wonder where it's coming from. Is it because she's not very mature in general? Is it because she has a habit of being manipulative in her life? (Her lying to you about what she said makes me wonder about that, also some other things you've said about her.) Is it because the whole "discover long lost bio-parent" has cataupalted (sp?) her back into a younger emotional state, just when dealing with this issue? I don't know which of those scenarios it might be.I do know that when my stepson was about 8 or 10, he thought it would be good if his parents got back together. I was jaw-dropped, figuratively, my brain smoking gears, when he told me -- my kids have always been able to talk to me about *everything* and I don't judge them, they know it's safe. I thought, WOW, he's seen his dad and I marry, divorce, his dad flame out with the gal he left me for, other girlfriends since then. He's seen his bios not get along, yelling, fight like cats and dogs for *years*, and yet he still hopes for this. Since my parents didn't divorce, I don't know this from the inside, and his wish made me think this could be a type of "eternal hope" for kids of divorce. However! At 23 now, I don't think he hopes for it, nor do I think he has for years. I think in some ways he barely tolerates either of them, much less wants to see what would happen if they were together.Another data point. When my 70-y-o cousin found his birth family accidentally, because someone offered to search for him, he dropped the rest of his family like a hot potato. We were like, "Um, huh? We've been related to you all this time, and now we're nothing?" It was the weirdest thing in the world. Mind you, he and I are a lot alike, have more of a sibling relationship, always expressing how thankful we are to have someone so alike and to share so much with in our family. He was also pressuring his son and daughter, both 30-ish to get to know his (full-blood) brothers. I talked to his son, and said, "I would be like, I already *have* uncles and aunts and cousins and relatives." His son said, "EXACTLY! I have relatives I've known and loved all my life, and I have no drive to get to know these guys." About 3 years later, my cousin said, "I've realized that I will never know my brothers well, never as well as my family, and they will never replace my family." Yathink? (!) Mentioning as one more data point about the "bio-relative fever" that takes over the brain and emotions of an intelligent person, and takes a *long* time to wear off.Back to your situation. I wonder: For who else's marriage(s) does your dh's dtr think she can suggest they break up and marry someone else that she would prefer to have them marry? If the answer is "No one else's," then wth does she think she's doing here? I would say more likely, there is no "thinking" involved, it's some type of compulsion related to the adoption issues. Or being manipulative in general, or something. (If she has a list of other marriages she's trying to rearrange, then *please* post here about it, because I really want to hear details! Haha! That would be really interesting -- and bizarre and totally wacko.)In this instance, if there's any counseling, I'd say it would be the 3 of you with a counselor. A very very good, older, experienced, well-referenced counselor, *or* a mediator, or someone who's both. Someone who groks adoption, too. The #1 question I'd have for her would be the above. "Is there anyone else whose marriage(s) you are trying to break up, then re-form?" [listen for answer] Then, "What do you feel you would gain if this happened?" [listen for answer, maybe more talking among people, various points] Then, "What do you envision would happen to our extended family, our children, ex-spouses, etc. if we broke up?" [listen for answer, maybe more talking various points] Then, "Here's some of what I think would happen...." and ask DH to discuss some of what would happen. And at some point, "Why do you think being biologically related to these 2 ppl gives you the right to try to decide for them who they would like to be married to?"And possibly last, I'd also want to ask her, "How successful is your campaign to break up each of your parent's marriages so far?" and "How long do you think you will continue this campaign, if it continues unsuccessfully? Do you think 6 more months would be enough? 1 year? 2 years?" Also: "Do you have any other friends who you think would still be your friend if you actively tried to break up their marriages?" And, "Would you want to keep relating to me if you found out I was trying to get your husband to leave you?" And after that, I might ask her if she would be willing to commit to a time-frame when she would drop the behavior.Note: There is power in questions. They have the power to change people that statements do not. People tend to resist statements, immediately want to argue them. I would try hard to avoid having this conversation with her with just the two of us, for about 17 reasons. Foremost being that she lied about what you said, and that the conversation should include your husband. He is a part of this triad, it's respectful of him to include him. And the 3 of you, IMO (in my opinion), need a referee present. Someone who's not "of or in" the drama. Someone with a skill set in calling out/calming down ppl who're being unreasonable. And in keeping groups of people from emotionally traumatizing each other. There's something else in my mind underneath all that, but I can't access it at the moment. Probably will surface in a day or so, and I'll post or p.m. you if it does.
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I have thought and mentally written post after post -Reading the responses - ALL of the previous posts "get to stuff" in exactly the way that I've been thinking across the board- but in your words - nailed it.Alys said there is something " floating" going on here - my feeling too. Can't quite find the words,.Just feel for you.
Thank you all for your input. My husband and I agree that this has to be addressed with his daughter. The when and how is what we still have to work on. We both like Alys1's suggestion to go in with questions rather than statements. That made a lot of sense to keep it from getting defensive or causing her to feel attacked.
As far as the jabs go, I'm going to hit 'em when they happen. It probably woudn't take too many times of doing that for them to stop. It's easier to do when you aren't going to be confronted with them.
As far as going there to visit, for now I think I feel comfortable going as long as we get a room rather than stay at their house.
I don't feel so powerless with this situation. I appreciate the help in getting me back in the driver's seat with my own life.
My son pushed the wrong buttons with me as he would deny saying things then would twist what was said and would accuse me of saying stuff to hurt him. He then started doing the same to my husband (son was adopted then we reunited a few years ago) which infuriated my husband. It was as if my son was trying to cause trouble between us but it didn't work. Eventually contact had to stop as my son was telling so many lies. You and your husband need to stay supportive of each other and be in agreance.
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I sent a private message to my husband's daughter. I explained to her how her wanting her mom with my husband felt to me. I kept it short and just said it was uncomfortable to have anyone fantasize about your husband with another woman and makes things awkward. I then asked questions about what she wanted and expected from all of these new relationships. I explained that I was naive and made assumptions about her wanting to be part of our family. I was very careful to make sure I was coming from a good place when I wrote it. I got a response back that was and it opened it up where we were able to talk more. We left off in a good place. I know there are going to be more challenges. She wasn't completely honest but I think that may come from fear. I know I'm willing to work through them and I think she is, too. I asked myself what it would feel for me like if she just walked away and knew it would be an emptiness, like there was something undone that would always be lurking there.
When something comes up that has to do with any part of my husband's family, (except my stepkids) I think he should be the one to 'fix' it. I'm afraid if I deal with things that I will damage his relationships. I don't want the responsibility. Fortunately, those things are rare or we would be a royal mess.
It hit me like a brick that these are MY relationships and MY responsibility. His sharing DNA with any of them doesn't absolve me from my responsibility for my own relationships.
I thought I was supposed to have life figured out by now and be set on cruise control.
I don't have anything to add really, just wanted to tell you that every time I read one of your posts I learn something. You have a great deal of compassion and a strong will to do the right thing. We can all learn from that. I am definitely one who learns by watching and listening...and I'm doing that by reading your posts...watching and listening. :prop:
Have a great rest of the day!
First of all I think it's important to acknowledge the fact that you are supportive about having your husband connect with his daughter given the fact that she was raised by her birth mother. That's a class act.I might be a little harsh here but I think it's important for us as adopted people to realize that it's not okay to project our issues on the people we want to build relationships with. It's dicey. I can understand this girl being a bit confused because really on a primitive level it's every kids fantasy to precipitate "Mom, Dad and apple pie" and to drive the person who is not Mom and Dad out of the loop. In the first little while after reuniting inside I would sometimes feel like I was 10. However acting on that stuff in the real world is a horse of a different colour. She is 32 not ten. How long has this been going on? It sounds like she is becoming much more daring in her drive manifest fantasy into reality. Maybe she's looking for a fantasy or maybe she's pushing to see how far your father will allow himself to be pushed as some sort of measure of how much he loves her. Testing if you get my drift.It could also be a bit of "I am going to push you away before you get the chance to reject me" That's a power play for narcissistic people. Bravado. I am going to get in your face and show you how tough I am for shock value. It keeps people unbalanced and they get away with holy murder figuratively. Stomping around social situations until people are so pissed off they fly off the handle then they can step back and say "see look what that person's like". They push the boundaries of polite interaction and they play people off against each other. It's self defeating and insulates them from taking the risk of being vulnerable. It's normal but very dangerous and destructive to the relationship. Someone needs to step in, set her derriere down and call it for what you see it to be. Ask her what she hopes to gain for herself from all of this? Reassurance will help. Its sounds like she's trying to control passive aggressively and she's using you as a pawn. Your husband needs to step up to the plate and let her know he sees through this; in my opinion and lay out some ground rules. Don't let yourself be manipulated into this effort to triangulate. Kids do it all the time and open communication is essential; calling it for what it is lets the steam out.Who knows what her family dynamic was like growing up. Was she the parent in her relationship with her mother? It happens. Sometimes a parent will share feelings based in resentment with their kids. It sounds like this could be the case. I wonder if you take a back seat for awhile; tell your husband that you feel it's really up to him to step in and set a firm boundary.Why does he need you to be present really; to sit her down and let her now that this is not acceptable? He needs to be direct and tell her that he's not going to tolerate any further disrespect for his relationship. That's what it is. I believe she has moved you into the focus and that's not going to get her any closer to where she wants to be. It sounds like wedge building. If she makes a barbed comment take her aside and say "That's not acceptable and I will not tolerate being spoken to in that manner".Your husband could talk about what this makes him feel. Deal with that head on. I wouldn't talk about what you think she's doing just tell her using I messages exactly how you feel. Hurt, angry, embarrassed. It sounds like subtlety isn't going to work. You can reassure her that you like her and want to insure that you have an open honest relationship. I don't think it's about you really it's more about seeing what her father will do.You don't have to use a sledgehammer, just a fly swatter if you nip it in the bud immediately. Does she do this in a group or when there are just the three of you? It sounds like a bit of narcissistic ego stuff. Flaunting her power because she's not all that secure.
If I've figured out anything in life, which I'm not sure is that much, I've figured out that when I have that uncomfortable gut feeling, it's either the way I'm thinking about or approaching whatever it is. There is always more personal responsibility than other's responsibility. I can't manage or control anyone else. Just me. Most of the time it's reasonbly easy to get there. With this reunion, it hasn't been easy but using this forum has really short cutted the process.
MurphyMalone is absolutely right about the triangle but I'm the one creating it. I'm worrying about my husband's relationship and thinking he should be the one taking care of all of this. He's the only one responsible for his relationship. He has to take care of that. I have to take care of myself. As long as I'm coming from a good place and being honest when I take care of myself, I can't do any harm. I feel so much better not feeling STUCK in all this bs. Just be me and let the rest work itself out. I'm trusting the process much more.
My husband's ex-wife has a short mantra that she tries to live by and I really like it: Do No Harm
I'm a wanna be philosopher. I do have a daughter that majored in philosophy. Actually, she had dual majors, philosophy and French. She's waiting tables now. :)
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I replied to the other thread and I want you to know that I think that your intentions are good but it sounds like the whole situation doesn't have to so overwhelming. Just remember that families are full of all kinds of push/pull situations and you don't have to take responsibility for making everyone feel included. In fact putting yourself in that role is causing undue stress to relationships developing based on what people are able to give.Take a breather and let go for awhile. You won't be replaced.
If some years down the road, anyone is reading this, I don't want you to gleen the wrong message here. Regardless of anything, this is not a reflection on my husband's daughter. It's a reflection on my husband and I and our ability to handle it. It could not have grown to this without me and my husband watering it.
I know if you're reading this, you want to do the right thing or you would have already done the wrong thing and been done with it. You wouldn't be here.
Each of us have our own dynamics in our marriages and our families. We have to look at them honestly and see what's really happening. This reunion isn't the cause. It's just a magnifying glass to show what's already there. It's an opportunity, a BIG opportunity to see it and work through and grow and be a better person and have an even better marriage and family than we go into this with.
If you're reading this, you are likely a compassionate and loving person. The whirlwind that surrounded the reunion may have left you feeling on the outside of something that you intuitively know that you should not be on the outside of. You know this is part of your marriage and part of your family. How can we possibly be so outside of something that we know is so woven into our lives? We're not. We do that to ourselves. We felt so thrown out that now we are waiting for our husband, our parent, or the adoptee to demonstrate that we are part of this and that our feelings aren't being dismissed.
They ALL need US and we are hurting them and us by not understanding that. We have to be the compassionate, understanding person we were before this. We have to trust ourselves regardless of what anyone else is doing. We have to do what we know is right, despite what anyone else is doing.
This is an adult coming into our lives but, in a lot of ways, they are also hurting children. We need to reach out with the compassion and love that we would a hurting child. Not in a condescending way. In a sincere way.
I read a great book called the Self-Centered Marriage by Hal Edward Runkel. The principals he teaches in his book could be applied to any relationship. The mantra he teaches is Calm Down, Grow Up, Get Closer. These reunions can be intense and volatile. We could all learn to use that mantra. Calm Down - don't go after any of this when high emotions are in play. Grow Up - what is our part in this? What are we afraid of? Get Closer - communicate from the most honest place in us. When we approach any relationship from fear, it can't ever be a meaningful relationship. We lose our honesty in fear. We have to be willing to be vulnerable and be honest. We have to be willing to take the risk.
Healthy boundaries are an important part of this. There may be extreme circumstances where someone in the reunion has to walk away. We have to know we are doing that from a place of it being best for everyone and not because we are afraid or threatened. None of us should be walking away from any relationship from a place of fear or anger. We haven't resolved something inside of us when we do that and, I promise, it will rear it's ugly head over and over until we're ready to look at it honestly.
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What you say is so true. Hopefully someone down the road will read this. We are indeed harbouring a child within us. As an adoptee I know she is fragile the little girl inside me. I can protect her now.
It gives me hope that in the future people will see how incredibly complicated things can be. But we are all human and if we humble ourselves to that fact and allow ourselves permission to take the risks required to connect we will all be better off.
You are absolutely right that fear and anger are not reasons to break away. There is so much light through that tunnel if people are willing to put forth the effort to work through the barriers.
Hopefully we will all see our way through the tunnel.