This is odd.

im i mo and money was an issue in give up my kids and welfare would not press charge aginst the dad so he would of got unsupervised vists with his kids so i chose adoption to protect my kids but before i chose my vistis were moved to forster home so the kids could bond better with thire foster parents so i was try to save my vistits and phone calls also there is not enough money or progams if you need couseling were i got help with my depression pervide couseling but i would of had to chose rent or couseling because at the time for low income it was $99 PER VISTIT and couseling consite of weeks of help its better to see your couselor evry week instead of monthly the help is not there its not the fostercare its that the help is not there because of money:(

Samantha I am so sorry to hear this happened to you.... I agree that money problems hurt more people then we can ever know. I wish there was a better way to help people who WANT help---i wish that people who didn't need help would not abuse what help there is.... making the system give less and less to those in the greatest need....

Unfortunately, this is not true. In many states, Permanent foster care is a "permanent" goal for the children. They do this instead of tpr'ing and allowing the children to be adopted. My children were 10 and 12 when placed with us. Four months later we went to court for their annual hearing and the goal was changed from foster care to permanent foster care w/out our prior knowledge. We were told they were changing it to adoption, b/c the children were already in care for over two years at the time. We felt very deceived by DSS and tried to fight them to get to adopt the children. We were threatened with removal of the children, so we stopped fighting. They had already been in seven foster homes. We loved them and considered them ours, so we shut our mouths. In my county there are MANY children who are forced by DSS to age out of foster care without permanency. I've questioned the legality of it, to a judge, at a hearing and I was told that it's up to the worker. It SUCKS!

What you are talking about is illegal since the passage of the Adoption and Safe Families Act passed in 1997. This is a federal mandate and you can find tons of info about it by doing a simply internet search. The federal governement now mandates that every state allows foster families to adopt childern they have cared for...before 1997 many states had laws that would not allow ANY foster family to adopt a child they had in their care and thus put an end to the title of Permanate Foster Care. The ASFA also mandates that any child in care for 15 of 22 consucutive months have an adoption plan concurrant with any other case plan the family may have. The slowest area of change has been with the Judges who have in many cases dragged out the process of the TPR. But even that appears to be going better the past few years. ASFA also mandates that states report statistics in a more consistant way and issue reports annually (They came out a few weeks ago for 2003) The also mandate that if an adoptive home cannot be found for a child is one state that the child may adopted in any state and there is federal paperwork requirements which make this process consistant with every state. ASFA provides federal fund to the states in order to impliment some of the mandates. Adoption Subsidy funds are funded in great part by the Federal Government and issues by the states. BUT not only does the govenrment assist the state in making it more possible for children to have adoptive homes---there are federal funding penalties for failure to achive the reguirements of the ASFA. If you are talking about this issue and it is happening right now in the year 2004 then I would BEG you to contact the media and give them this story. This is an unacceptable story for the laws as they are today. If this is going on a lot then there is a very horrible problem going on in your county and the single best way to get that accomplished is to start pointing this out to the Nation. I would write to your Congressman and Senators right away as a concerned citizen. I would FLAP my MOUTH about this situation to Any and EVERY possible ear that might have the power to change it--and I wouldn't shut up until it was fixed.... The ASFA is a Law and the fact of the matter is that NO child should be denighed Adoption without some very valid rasons...I can think of some cases where it MIGHT happen but to happen often in one county and in a way yoy describe is not legal PERIOD.

I would FLAP my MOUTH about this situation to Any and EVERY possible ear that might have the power to change it--and I wouldn't shut up until it was fixed.... Would you do this at the risk of losing the children you've had for over three years? I "flapped" for almost two years, until I got a letter from their GAL. I took the letter to court with me to show the judge. He told me I HAVE TO GO THROUGH DSS! They are in cahoots (sp?) with the legal department. No one will listen to me. If I go to the media, my children will be removed. Believe me, in four years when they've both aged out, I WILL be YELLING! Until then, I have to protect my children from a system that refuses to. Here's the VA statute that's used to break the ASFA law: [url]http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+coh+16.1-282.1+500285[/url] This one is from the sw manual: [url]http://www.dss.state.va.us/policymanual/fc/part_07[/url]

After reading the whole threas I had some things I wanted to add. -wrongful removal. I find it horrifying that people want CPS worker to have to PROVE allegations before the child is taken from the home. The ONLY case where a child is EVER taken immediately are allegations of physical abuse where there are marks or broken bones and emergent cases. In emergent cases or physical abuse allegations by a physician there are people that WANT CPS to leave kids with these people? I find that disturbing. If the allegation is untrue at leaset the child is alive. Who is the system for anyway? Can you imagine if a CPS worker had to gather evdience and go to court before a removal? HOw many parents would run or how many kids would die before the judges ruled? Is that a price we want to pay? We have one poster here who was repeatedly called on by CPS and her children were never removed because there was no cause ans she STILL rails against CPS? I'd think that's the way it was supposed to work and she'd be glad that someone came around to make sure the llegations weren't true and had enough sense to beleive her. 72 hour hearings are to prove just cuase and if you don't have just cause for removel the judge gives you your child back. They are never taken away for dirty homes, I have seen FILTH that a child could not be taken from. There is always more to it that that. -helping a 14yo parent. I'd rather have my taxes go to her now, than later to support her kid in jail after he hurts me or my family. Jail is more expensive than parenting assitance anyway. -proving your innocence. Family court has a lower bar of proof than criminal. It's not "beyond a shadow of a doubt" it's "a preponderance of evidence" SO, after the 72 hour hearing for just cause and the 30 day hearing the parents get a parenting plan and we have time to investigate the allegations. EVEN IF THE PARENTS ARE GUILTY if they follow the parenting plan, a preponderance of the evidence will show that they COULD be a good parent. That's a lot different from having to prove your innocence beyond the shadow if a bdoubt and why lots of crappy parents get their kids back, it's not that hard, you just have to do the work. Some people say that allegations of physical abuse and neglect that causes damage ot the children SHOULD be prosecuted criminally but at that point a LOT more kids will be in the system and there's just not enough money for that.

i did the all that kept me from getting my kids was couseling which i could afford and welfare said they did not have the money to help my church might have been able to pay for one sesion but im not sure i did not ask at the time so my kids were adopted by the forster parents im not mad at welfare im mad because i lack one item and because of that i had to give my kids up money more money is need in order that the parents get all the help they need that all im saying welfare was in the right when they took my kids i was very depressed and a danger to them but had i been able to get all the services i needed my kids would still be with me plz understand i love my kids and it taken alot of work on my part to relize that i hurt my kids because i got sick welfare at least in my case helped my kids ty:(

Yes I think the foster system and CW are riping families apart. I agree that tooo many people are agreeing to foster children in hopes that they may be allowed or "promised" a child that is NOT theirs. Where is the justice in this? I know for a fact that CPS or what ever you want to call them DO NOT try to reunite families like they are suppose to. Instead they work against them, cost people undue time and money, and promise foster parents children that already have a loving family if the bio-parents can't get themselves clean. I am fighting the system right now and i know that many people on this forum don not like the fact that we are trying to get our relative out of the system, but we will not turn our back on him and allow anyone to take this child from us. The lady that called that one mother "a crap of a mother" shame one you. No one is perfect and if you are fostering to adopt a child only then you don't need to be allowed to foster children. This children need your help and so does their families. If a child comes along and truly needs TPR then by all means try to adopt the child. But don't ripe families apart in the mean-time.

Are you kidding.... You would rather see families staying together when the children are being abused/neglected just because they are related? What will happen to the kids during the time that the parents are being investigated after they have been reported? I think that it is true that the system fails from time to time, but I would rather see a child taken for a short while if the parents are being investigated then have them left there (as seems to happen quite regularly) until report after report has been filed.

Buzz is talking about when family members come forward to take the child either to foster until the parents get their acts together or adopt if they go to tpr. What she is saying is true, that foster parents are promised to be able to adopt the foster child when there are reliable, healthy family members willing to take the child and they have come forward early in the case. The sw's promise children even when it's too early in the case to know what the outcome will be.

sorry lindsie for the misunderstanding. I am completely in support of children being placed in foster care when there is horriable things happening to the children in any home, rich or poor, educated or uneducated. like i've stated before my best friend is a foster mother herself and she does a wonderful service to the children she is helping and i really look up to her. i never knew the system worked this way until i became personnaly involved in this case. my friend said that everyone would help me and the fm would work closley with me to help the baby transition into our home. these things never happened. we have been lied to and humiliated by the foster parents and the cps workers as well as casa. we went to court on the 13th and the foster family was sooo rude to us. the fm said that they had a 4 bedroom 2 bath house and we only had a small trailer, her husband made 1600 dollars a month more than we did, that i was unresponsable because i let my children ride dirt-bikes. i didn't have time to take care of the baby b/c i was the primary president of my church and i am active with my children in the scouting program and b/c my children have the nieghborhood children and their cousins over to spend the night. I have been homeschooling our children and so does the fm but, she was concerned about my childrens education b/c she has a masters and i don't. when my son was 3 he got out of his car seat and i got a seat belt ticket. the fm said that i was irresponsable b/c that would never happen in her car b/c her children knew the rules and they would never do that. has anyone ever not had a problem with a least one child who did not want to ride in their car seat? I sat there and thought i can't believe that you are serious? what does money have to do with the kind of home that parents can provide? both foster parents trashed my husband and i for riding a motorcycle and b/c my husbands brother has a private air-plane and we go fly a few times a year. again what is wrong with that? what does she having a masters and i not have to do with me being educated enough to teach my children? what does her large 4 bedroom house ofter that my 1600 sq ft double-wide moblie home does not ofter? both foster parents were conserned about my husbands work schedule. said that he worked to many hours and that he therefore couldn't spend enough time with his family. my husband works from 8:00 to 5:30 sometimes later but, guess what so does her husband except he works aleast 2 hours a night at home each night of the week. that is more than my husband does. (i see nothing wrong with her husbands schedule if thats what he has to do to make a living, but why bash my husband for the same thing?) the fm and i are both at home moms. we both home-school our children. yet i am bad and she is good? these are the type of reasons i know for sure now she is not looking out for the best interest of the child, she just wants a baby. and we have been trying to get the baby since the child was right at 5mth old, the fm has known the entire time. i know this has been long but please don't hate or dislike me b/c i am hurt by the system and the fps attitudes and yes i do not trust them at all. i wish things had been different. the judge decided to keep placement where the baby is now and we and the foster family have to meet twice for a 2 hour visit, them we get him in their state 2 overnight stays unsupervised, then they have to bring him to our state and he gets to stay here with us and they will see our home and then we get him the week-end before the court date. then the judge will decide where the baby is going to be placed and adopted by. we are tired and running out of money, we will probably lose my cousins baby to the foster family but, i can rest a night knowing that one day he will look for us and i will show him all i went through to get him home with his family and then they will have to explain to him why he was stole from our family and his brothers and sisters all because the system that was supposed to be helping decided not to and tear families apart in order to keep a foster family happy and from quiting being a fostering family. how sad. thanks again for letting me vent and responding to my posts love buzz

No one in their right mind wants any child to be abused or neglected, sexually,physcially, or practically, nor to see children being phycalogically damaged by parents who are lacking in caring skills, unfortunatley that is probably happening to a significant amount of children who are with parents, this does not justify the authorities having the unchallengeable power or right to remove any children from family, and place elsewhere. Although minimul abuse(a slap), or neglect(poor living conditions, or a lack of attention given, is not the ideal for any child, baring in mind that was often the normal for prior generations, who`s children still grew up to be well balanced and happy adults, whereas many children being in the care system are known to grow up to be more likely to become criminals,fact, also to use drugs or drink to deal with bad memories, so where is the worst influence?, ask the adult children, many say they would have preferred to have stayed with their flawed parents, and providing they are not suffering serious damage it could be best for some, if not all. To suggest that all parents who are prepared to do all what the state requires of them to be good parents, and many of these parents do jump through hoops and go through hell for a long period of time to suit the authorities demands, whilst living with the stress, anxiety and depression of having their children in care, not sleeping or eating well, so yes they do get worn down with it, and to suggest that any parent or indeed any individual who fights hard enough will beat the authorities in a court is naive, the courts, be it criminal, and more so with p[rivatefamily courts are often biased in favour of authorities, just how many prosecution cases fail, few l think, even when its a public court, more so with the private family courts. An adoption agency was quoted as saying they only had one case revoked in favour of parents over several years, l know of one case where the defendant, and you are often made to feel like a criminal in family court, this woman was a solicitor, as was her husband, her father a cheif inspector of police, still found guilty and sent to jail, over a year later the evidence based on one medical expert was found unsafe, leading to her and others being released. What l am saying is that the authorities and courts do not always get it right, that there are cases of injustice served out. And what of the families of children who go into care, grandparents, aunts and uncles, they are not all unwilling or incapable, many being decent, responsible, moral and caring, but are often not approached or dismissed by those in authority, often on unfair, or p.c. grounds, and its not that rare, just swept under the carpet, an unknown to many people. There is a neccessity for some children going into care, or for adoption, but not as many as it happens to, who could remain with family Still this is not as large a problem as the many children that are losing contact with their dads through divorce, again authorities going against fathers on questionable grounds. I believe the future will see the child care system as seriously flawed and damaging to families and children, that at present the nearest to a humane system is the Australian one, as can be read about on these boards, there is still foster care, and adoption when truly needed, but all is done with a lot more care in making sure they get it as right and good as they can.

l`d like to add that just because something is illegal does not mean it doesn`t happen, in all walks of life, also in the childcare system, as is known by solicitors and barristers, probably judges also, you are often told by them to go along with the authorities, which you may do thinking they know best, or fear of access to your children being stopped, ie. they have a cold, or the foster mum has, going on paid holiday, not illegal, i have heard social workers, and legals talk of how adoptable a child is at start, re age, health, colour, or temprament. There is undermining, intimidation, manipulation, deception, lies on report, in and out of court, it does happen, to some, how many l dont know. You can shout and stamp, wave your arms till you fall apart, it doesn`t mean you`ll change anything, the media do have some awareness but cant or wont report on it, certainly not on idividual cases, probably illegal to do so, most polatitians, local or national dont want to know or become involved, the system a law unto itself it seems. It is not easy to change or fix things, how long did it take to change other injustices, apartheit, or child labour, animal cruelty, whilst the child care system only affect a tiny minority of the public. I too had never been involved, or ever met a social worker, or knew about family courts, thank god l didn`t, and believed as most do that the system is right and justified, till l saw it through an extended family member, the shock and disbelief of what seems archaic to me, whilst some children who should be taken into a safe place, are left to suffer, whilst others dont need to be in care at all. Sorry to ramble on, and its not always easy to believe strangers, just my experiece.

There are other options out there besides adoption, and placing the child with the state. When I was a child my mother realised she was in no place mentaly or financialy to take care of four out of controle children. I was the lucky one who had a foster mother take me in, my mom just signed a letter giving her custody of me and that was that. My sister was placed as a ward of the state, my older brother lived on his own, and when I tuned 18 my little brother came to live with me. Now years later I have had friends who hit bumps in there life who needed to get there life together and I have cared for there children as they rebuilt there life. This inturn has lead me to become a foster parent with the state and we pray that some time soon we will be able to adopt more children. What ever the choice is with the parent to sign over temporary custody, place for adoption, that is only a choice the parent can make, no one knows what personal ghosts the individual is dealing with. every parent has things they think to them self that the dont tell any one. My mothers secret ghost was she was ready to die, thank the lord she has regained her life and we where lucky enough to get back intouch with her and rebuild a relationship aswell as keep the relationship with the mom that raised me.

I think the point is that they WANT to give their child up for adoption period. And then how can they do that without using the foster care system. It isn't about trying to avoid having a foster case period. It is about making a decision to give children up and trying to figure out the best way to find them a family without putting them in foster care.