We are STILL waiting

J. Mayhew, In your opinion do you think the election results could slow down the process for those of us with referrals? Kind of like a "lame duck" government, nothing will get done until the new govt. is in place? Or will the judges and govt officials proceed as usual. Thanks for your input. Julie

Tanya, No one really knows yet as it is too soon to see what the results will shake out. Everything continues to move in the system as far as we can tell. There are a number of changes possibly taking place but we wont really know what they are for a few more weeks. For you and everyone else in the system, we can only advise to stay the course. This entire process is new for Panama and the administration on its way out did not ever seem to grasp what it was they were really supposed to do. They gave every effort within what we considered their capacity but accomplishment was always illusive. (lost the paperwork, canԴt find the mother, judge is ill, aunt/uncle/brother in law shows up, mother doesnt show up for court, one bureaucrat is upset with the other bureaucrat so they refuse to work together, etc.) The new administration vows to clean this up. We will see but for now we continue to hold the same course and follow up with each new glich that shows up. Each day brings us closer to completion. There is a rainbow and the end is in sight.)

Good grief, J! Everything you mentioned (in parentheses) that seems to be typical for adoption in Panama right now has happened to us over the past 17 months since we mailed our dossier to Panama! Sounds like we're not the only ones currently in limbo. Rebecca

It isn't just international adoptions going through this, the same delays have been evident in domestic as well and all of them are in the justice system. When a new President takes office here, there is a complete changeover in every single department right down to the secretaries and janitors. There is good news and bad news in that. There are promises from the new pres to clean this up but the old admin going out is not co operating, from what we are told, on the changeover, so new people have to figure out what the situation is before they will be able to make any significant change. However, we are still confident that there is good news for all the parents in what is occuring now and for those who come to Panama to adopt in the future. I have witnessed many positive changes in spite of the current admins inability to proficiently provide services. Panama is a blooming country and will be the flower of Central America within a very short few years. Keep smiling your family is on the way and it will happen for you. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers as this moves ahead.

One more question, J: I e-mailed Carmen Donna July, 2003 (en espanol) and asked her where we were on the waiting list to receive a referral. At that time, she told me we were "family #58" but that some of the previous 57 had already received referrals and that if our lawyer wasn't being "pendiente," we should consider finding a new laywer. (It took our first lawyer 6 months to sumbit our translated dossier! We hired a new lawyer right after that warning from Carmen!) Do you have any idea why, in all of this time (10+ months), we never received a referral? Carmen Donna does know that we have 2 children in mind (since last July!), but our attorney begged her to be on the lookout for another child (0-8 years, any race, any treatable medical) in case these 2 do not get their parental rights terminated. Plus, their paperwork was lost for 3 or 4 months, and our attorney checked in with the DNA weekly to see if we had a referral, yet. Any idea why this happened with our case (never got a DNA referral)? We're adopting independently with an attorney who has been in the domestic and international adoption practice for more than 10 years. Carmen Donna even told me that our attorney is highly respected! The two references (from our attorney) I spoke with both adopted in 2002-2003, and the whole process took only 10 months and 13 months. Thanks for your insights! Rebecca

I will be happy to respond to your question on this issue privately and not on the forum. You may e mail me directly at panamajimmy@earthlink.net.

Jim, You seem to have a great handle on how the process works, maybe you could explain it to us a little bit. There seems to be some shades of gray with the process. What alot of us want to know is how long does it take to get a termination of parental rights hearing and than how long does it take to get the custody hearing and than travel? Also, how in the world do you find out where you are at in the process??? Rebecca seems to have a pretty good idea where here case is at, but she does have direct contact with an attorney, so how do we get that type of information? It just seems so strange to me that we are adopting and have no idea if our referred child has had TPR yet, how can we find that out? I know these are alot of questions, I just thought you would have good insight from the info. you have provided this far. I know there are alot of us that want to know more about the process and the huge question time and time again on this board is timelines. Thank you for your time and any info you can share. I know I speak from the entire group, we appreciate any information given:), Tanya

The process in Panama with the current administration has been very sketchy. Delays on just about everything are rampant. Information given one day changes the next or worse, relied on for thirty days or longer only to find out that the information was wrong or the scheduled event never happened. Some of these children came from areas of the country that only are accessable by helicopter or mule. It is what is keeping the agencies hopping. We have to follow up on every single bit of information to make sure it is accurate. The attorneys, not the agencies are the only people allowed in on the process and their access is limited. Once the documents, whatever they are, such as the TPR, go to the judges office, it enters a never never land that is inaccessable to almost everyone. The only solution is to go to the court every single day and bug them. That seems to work the best and we know that everything really is in process, we just dont know where it is in the system. A smile and some flowers to the clerk sometimes does wonders. I again tell everyone that this is not unusual for a country just starting out in adoptions. Before this process got underway in Panama I talked to parents who had visited their child in the orphanage every weekend for seven years. Since they signed on to the Hague there really is a process here. It is just meeting with a lot of resistance to change and an incredible problem of accountability on all levels with the current administration. We have spoken to some of the new administration coming in who are aware of the circumstances and are promising us change. In addition, several of the attorneys we work with regularly are very well connected in the new administration which is a plus in any country. The boat is not sinking and we are still rowing. I know it is difficult to wait for all of the parents. It is as bad for the agencies who have made promises based on infomation they receive that has proven not to be reliable. However, it is the only information they have so they have to go with it. There is no deliberate attempt on anyones part to mislead. Many of the attorneys here are as reputable as attorneys can be. We work with several who we follow up on closely and they are working diligently for our parents. They donԴt get paid until the jobs done. The agencies are officially in the cold. Therefore information is hard to come by when the docs head into the black hole at the ministry of justice. As for the minstry of families, the former director was always very forthcoming with us on all the issues and for the most part co operative but still slow. There is no money funding this ministry so whatever happens in the process is pretty much paid for by the agency. This includes medical check ups, child illnesses, profiles, etc. Right now we are not sure of the direction the ministry will take with the departure of the director. Appointing another director seems fruitless and the temp they put in last week already seems to have her hands full and is unsure of what it is she is supposed to be doing there. Your agencies and attorneys will keep you posted on that I am sure. I hope this is of some assistance to you all. Whatever country you are adopting from there will always be some minor difficulties. Some more than others. However, that being said I look forward to much of the confusion in Panama to be history in the next few short months. The situation will be fairer and more children should become available as a result of more accurate accounting and follow up with the orphanages and with foster families now holding adoptable orphans. For the families that we are responsible for, their adoption case manager will answer any questions they may have, if we have the information they seek. If we dont they will have to wait until we do.

I hope you guys don't mind if I jump in with my thoughts.... I agree with everything Jim has said - and think that you guys are fortunate he is here, and able to help clarify issues that - unless you've lived in Panama and experienced it first hand - is very difficult to comprehend..... I do want to put in my .02 cents on a couple of things though, if that's o.k.... First, regarding the family Jim mentions that visited their child for 7 years in a Panamanian orphanage..... In my years of experience there (volunteering at the orphanage, adopting there, and participating with the Consulate to put adoption information seminars together for Americans living in Panama), I came across just one family who had an excessively long-lived adoption process..... the woman remained in Panama a long time, without her husband and family, trying to work out problems in her adoption. I conversed with her now and then... and I recall thinking to myself that she had to take part of the blame for the problems. But I cannot remember the details. It was just extremely unusual circumstances... and a very difficult adoption case. I also know of a family that tried to skirt the process illegally, and ended up being forced to return the kids after having had custody of them for 2 years. But again... they had to shoulder some of the blame. Cases, such as the one Jim mentions, I believe are extremely rare. But fo them to hang on 7 years just goes to prove that you just cannot GIVE UP. OUR adoption took an unusually long time... 2 1/2 years (give or take - it's fuzzy now, thankfully). But that was because we had to wait for the birth mom to turn 18, as her insane father would not sign the paperwork allowing his "minor" child to relinquish her child (he was, clincially, insane). I also had a good friend there who adopted an infant - and had the adoption done in less than 6 months because of the child's medical needs ("prematura"). I don't know if Kitty's here (you here, Kitty?), but I think she would agree that ALL of us adopting at the same time there would compare notes for a while, and then it was, "so how much longer for you?" because it made no sense to compare our adoptions by what step you were at. Each judge, each case, was different - as different and night and day sometimes. We were very supportive of one another, and would applaud wildly for our cohorts who made it one step closer to their final adoption! We learned from them, too..... each of us would find info that was beneficial to others' adoptions, and would share it. (Which is what Jim is doing for you now). I would have to disagree with one of Jim's statements (sorry Jim!) that adoptions are new in Panama. They really are not. For as long as Americans were living in Panama (and continue to do so working for the Panama Canal Commission), they were adopting. All bases (Howard Air Force Base, Fort Clayton, Amador, etc etc) had orphanage outreach programs, and did a LOT to support the various orphanages there. Through this, Americans would discover a child.... and thus the ball would begin rolling. Adopdtion information seminars were a bi-weekly event as well. What IS new is the attention Panamanian Adoptions are gleaning from the U.S. , versus Americans adopting while living in Panama. Also.... while a volunteer at Malambo, I met SEVERAL couples from Spain who were at the orphanage to visit the child they were adopting, or because they had completed the adoption and were now picking their child up. Spain was very keen on adopting from Panama...... I met the nicest couples, too, I must say. One thing I do know, and Kitty will agree with, is that the orphanages tend to make people think they garner SOME control over the adoptions of their children........ while I'm sure they could have "some" say (perhaps tell a social worker they approve or disapprove of you), in the end, it is out of their control. Kitty, as you'll recall, my friend, Rhonda, kept her lips zipped about the adoption of Emily because she knew the nuns would try to interfere again.... and then one day, she and her attorney showed up at the infant house with their paperwork, and walked out with Emily, with the nuns' mouths to the floor. It was priceless..... :o) She knew if she said something ahead of time, that there could be interferance to slow down the process. There are excellent attorneys in Panama..... there are also mega slime balls (one of whom I hired in the end to help me get my paperwork out of the paperwork limbo which Jim describes). Sometimes the slimeballs can be your friend........ LOL...... this particular weasel had oodles of connections (all political), and let me tell you..... I had my paperwork out of the fiscal's hands, the birth certificate re-registry (new names put on it) complete, and had a Panamanian passport for our daughter within 24 hours. I also paid big time $$ for this. But, because he knew someone at each of those offices, our paperwork moved through. I was in a crisis though, and I don't recommend anyone take it this far. Most attorneys ARE very well connected there. My dilemma was that I had run out of time to live on post there. I was, literally, THE last American living on Clayton. AT night, I was THE only light on........ I was there without my husband and son for over 2 months before I gave in, and hired "the weasel". Anyway...... Jim is right....... your attorneys know what they're doing....... they know the system, and they know how to work it. But with this newbie handling things at the DNA........ it's going to back up again. Just remember to keep this picture in your mind: Secretaries sitting in a hot office, with their own toilet paper stash in their desk, hen pecking at an old model typewriter........ That was MY experience...... and I can't imagine things have changed TOO much. :) I wouldn't give up. I know TOO many of us who had successful adoptions. While the process can be painfully long and tedious and challenges ones' logical thought processes (LOL)...... It's worth it. Hang on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot forget those childrens' faces....... and the hope that they have that a family will find them. Trust me....... I used to listen to their stories of "when I get a mom and dad"............

So Kim my son is almost three so should I start checking into pre-K classes or get ready for the long wait and start checking out first grade teachers?:) Just a little waiting humor. Im to the point that non of this seems real so all we can do is pray and keep smiling:) Thanks for the information Kim, and the pictures and dreams keep us going strong. Take care and baby dust to us all, Tanya

Well..... can you pre-order college applications??? ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (just kiddin) I wish I had more helpful advice to offer you....... Panama is such a screwy country (government and "law" wise), you just can't predict ANYTHING there..... Still...... I would continue to encourage people to adopt from there, if someone were to ask me today........ I really mean this. I've glanced through other adoption forums, and belong to an adoption group for Okinawa (my present location).... and am hard pressed to find ANYONE who is having a speedy adoption process. I know of one couple who is going on their 3 rd year of trying to complete their China adoption......... :o\ One tidbit that did come my way is that Taiwan adoptions seem to be going fairly well......... so if anyone here contemplating adoption who has not yet picked a country, you might try checking into that.... I still would not give up on Panama though. And..... if any member of this forum, or adoption agency out there, wants the name of the infamous "weasel" I hired......... you know..... maybe he'd be worth a shot???? I'll gladly pass on his info. HOWEVER.... take note.... he tried hitting me up for more money SEVERAL times post-return to the U.S. When the Americans left, he lost most of his clients, and I think he was in financial trouble. He knew EVERYONE though...... my gosh........ there were many things I DIDN'T ask. Didn't want to know. I just let him do his job, and made sure everything was legal (which it was, thanks to God). :o\

Yes Kim, I am here. I've been trying to get on, but things are a bit hectic. (To say the least. LOL) We are in a domestic adoption situation and things are just crazy, but that's another story. I also knew of people that "paid off" the "right" offices and their adoptions were handled in a quick fashion, but I do NOT recommend this. It could be over-turned quite quickly and the adoption can be nullified. (I'm talking people had the adoption done in less than 3-months including INS.) Kim is right. All of our adoptions were totally different. We did learn tidbits of information for each that we were able to apply to our own cases, but most of the parents involved, really had to do most of the leg work. Our first attorney sat on her rear-end (I won't use any adjectives to describe how I really felt about that woman) and just took our money. She did NOTHING. (We found out from the court, when we went their with our translator, that another couple had come to see our son, but turned him down, because he was not "perfect". Thank the Lord for small miracles. The nuns were told this couple was coming to visit him and they "persuaded" them to look somewhere else.) We just kept going to the court (chocolates also works wonders for the over-worked, underpaid, court clerks) with our new attorney and got custody in 2- months. We were actually in front of the judge and passing paperwork through various offices on Christmas Eve. We got to the orphanage to pick him up around 7pm that evening- the court had called ahead to make sure they knew we were coming to take him home. Yes, we had a Christmas miracle. This is where our adoption took the stand-still. Nothing, I mean NOTHING, was done after that. Our adoption paperwork was in 3-different files. (One under his name, one under his birth mom's name, and one under ours.) Since none of the paperwork was complete (when it was separated) nothing was done. It actually was all complete, when it was put together. It took the kindness of a government liaison that worked on Ft. Clayton (where my husband had worked for 2-years) to step in and "fix" everything. When we were with him, people stood up and greeted us at the door. We were supposed to leave Panama in May of 1999, but couldn't due to the adoption paperwork fiasco. The families were all told they had to be off of the base by June 1st, but we couldn't leave. (Yes, we were told to take our son back to the orphanage and leave him there, until everything was done and we could fly back to pick him up. NO!!! Not an option.) We got permission to take him to the US in August (yes, we were also the only family members on the entire base) and my hubby ended up staying until the first of November. We got the finalized adoption the end of October 2-days before he was to leave for the US. It was translated and notarized all within 24-hours just in time for him to get on the plane to leave. It was a nightmare. It took over 2-years from the time we met him until the time of the final adoption. Things just happened that caused the delays. I will say, it was ALL worth it. You definitely need to make sure, that whoever you use, is well connected and also the "squeaky wheel does get the grease". It's the only way to get anything accomplished. Yes, these court clerks work in conditions that would be considered archaic by our standards. They work very hard. Our court offices had files piled up everywhere. Now, this may sound like I'm bad-mouthing Panama, but really, I'm not. This was what happened with us. Look into domestic adoptions in the US. Take a look at all of the foster care problems with our own country. Watch the forums here and see all of the problems we're having. The only thing different with our country, is that the parents may get custody quicker, but most adoptions are taking almost as long. See how many delays in our court systems, due to the same reasons they're being delayed in Panama. Look at how hard it is to get TPR on parents that severely abused their children. It's just a difficult process all around and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. K.

Hey "K".......... :) So good to hear from you!!! Ironically, Rhonda (if you remember her) is also going through an adoption within the U.S. - and it sounds like quite a roller coaster ride...... funny the two of you are doing the same thing. :) I wanted to pipe back in with two things....... I should have clarified about my "WEASEL"... (my affectionate name for him)...... He was the attorney for many many U.S. military personnel and personnel at the Embassy. Like most Panamanian attorneys, he was educated at an ivy league univ. in the U.S..... Anyway.... What he didn't do, as unbelievable as it sounds (for Panama), was pay off people. I know I made it sound that way.... and now it must look like I'm back peddling, but here's how it worked.... I paid HIM for his good political and social connections. Believe me, he needed ALL the money I gave to him, as he had lost nearly all of his American clientelle. At one point, he asked me to meet him at this bar (down near Paitilla Plaza - at least it wasn't a seedy place)........ the whole purpose was because his friend, a Majestrate, was offering to help, however...... NOT UNTIL HE MET ME AND COULD VERIFY THAT I WAS ADOPTING FOR THE RIGHT REASONS..... O.k.... I'm thinking, "oh my gosh.... he's taking me to show off his American friend to one of his buddies......" - I was so nervous about this meeting, that I had a soldier-friend of ours wait in his car in the parking lot....... give me 30 min.... and then come up to check on me....... He was up there in less than 20 - even HE was nervous. Well..... in the end...... know what happened? I had a drink w/the weasel..... waited for his "friend" to show up..... and when I finally did get to meet this guy, he said something very unexpected.... It went something like: "I believe your heart is in the right place, and I will do all I can to help you get back to your family in the U.S. quickly, but I want you to understand that this child is a gift from the angels, and you are not to take her for granted." He shook my hand, told me it was nice to meet me.... said goodbye to weasel...... and then he left. It was all of 10 minutes...... it was over before my friend could come up and check on me. * BTW: I HAD TO PAY THE BAR TAB..... it was $70!!! The weasel had been up there drinking for an hour before I got there....... GRRRRRRRR! We also specifically told "the Weasel" that if he were to pay anyone ANYTHING to move our stuff along, it would jeopardize our adoption, and therefore - if this were the case - we could not hire him. But - as weasely as he was - other people assured us he didn't "have" to pay anyone, he was just everyone's drinking buddy. So.... we lucked out. At the passport office, he was hugged and kissed by employees.... so that was kind of wild..... clearly, they knew and liked him. Still.... he was a snake in the grass, to me. I would endure an hour long visit to his office where we would talk about how wonderful he was, and how he knew this person and that...... (inside I was thinking, "Lord - get me out of here.") :rolleyes: So.... "K" makes an excellent and important point........ bribery is such a HUGE no no (monetary)...... but being NICE to social workers, etc, goes a LONG way. They're not paid enough to be able to afford things like: a taxi ride home (vs. the hot, uncomfortable bus), a box of chocolates, etc. I also highly recommend that if you're not using an agency (which, again, we did not)..... be sure to offer to cover your attorney's gas and transportation expenses. Getting around Panama can be agonizing sometimes (not all the time, but on a bad day it can be). By being aware of the hurdles everyone involved in your adoption process must undertake to get your case moving along, you facilitate the flow of the process. As for adoptions being "new"... I've had another thought on that... What IS new as far as adoptions in Panama is the use of agencies. Any stats you see that show the number of adoptions completed in Panama are those adoptions completed without the use of agencies (prior to the handover of the U.S. facilities back to Panama). Post handover, I believe there have been quite a few successful agency-facilitated adoptions. It's COMMON PLACE in Panama that attorneys handle adoptions for a client......... and what's probably throwing some of Panama's system for a loop is the introduction of all these agencies that have popped up. They're all getting used to one another (and THAT'S GOOD). A friend of mine living in Panama has told me that it causes suspicion (remember the ratio of uneducated to educated citizens in Panama, and how rumors can run rampant)...... so the agencies have a mega path to cut for themselves, the most important of which is TRUST. If one agency does ONE FISHY THING, or one unscrupulous thing, EVERY agency is going to suffer. I, for one, am hoping for the success of those agencies that are truly there to provide a service to both adoptive parents and adoptees......... there are many unwanted chidren in Panama...... and they deserve every effort to place them with families. Don't give up....... :)

Oh Kim, I'm so sorry if it sounded like I implied you "paid off" for the adoption. I will also let everyone know, that we all knew what a huge mistake that would be, so NONE of us did anything illegal or imoral to achieve this. I definitely didn't want to make it sound like that. I went back and reread and went, OH MY GOODNESS!!!! It did sound a little bad. Please accept my apology for not rereading everything thoroughly. (I guess my brain was thinking much faster than my hands could type and it didn't come out very well. LOL) I also agree 100%, that kindness goes a long way. I felt so sorry for the court clerks. We had an interview in the clerk's office and were doing a type of questionaire thing. It was actually about 3-pages long, but took over 3 hours to complete, because it was typed word for word on an old manual typewriter-that I honestly hadn't seen one like it in many years. When there was a typo, we had to stop mid-thought, so she could take the paper out, use white out, let it dry, line it back up into the typewriter, then start again. I mean, that's a difficult job. Also, I might add with paying for the attorney's gas and transportation, you might want to think about him going to lunch. You could be at court for hours and he's away from everything and lunch is just a kind gesture. (It'll also tell him you appreciate his extra effort in keeping up with the court.) A thank you note for his hard work, goes miles. Let them really know they are appreciated. (Believe me, they are holding your future in their hands.) Above all, please be kind. K.

Too funny.. because I went back over my original post and CRINGED that I had made it sound like we had some sneaky business going on under the table (so to say)!!!! It was "my" error, K. - no offense taken by your post AT ALL...... I was just prying my foot out of my mouth (as usual)!!! :) That attorney was THE biggest weasel ever.... but that's what made him so popular, and that's why he probably knew so many people...... I think how it worked was that they did him a favor, and then... some time on down the line, he would reciprocate. I firmly believe this is just how it works there (if not everywhere in the world). This guy would brag for HOURS how "so and so owed him a favor"... and "I saved this guy's job".... yada yada yada....... If I hadn't needed his help so much (we had less than a week before we were going to be forced to leave Clayton).... I would have poured a drink in his lap..... :) You're right about lunch....... we did that, too... AND I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING OVER YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE TYPING!!!!! OH my gosh... was THAT agonizing, or what? I remember my husband turning to me and saying, "watching her repair her typos is like having someone push bamboo shoots under my finger nails...." LOL ohhhhhh.... it was soooooooooo painful.......... We were thinking the same thing....... hadn't seen a typewriter like that since I was a KID (and it was my grandmother's)!!! I just remember needing to go to the bathroom at the courthouse, and the social worker handing me her prized roll of toilet paper...... I returned the next day with a huge 12 pack of charmin for the entire office...... :)