Just wondering.....

Thank you jessica..you touched on something I've been pondering about but not knowing how to put in words. 1) when you refer to a DOG's Pedigree your talking about how PURE those genetic lines are. Your breeding in order to bring out all the traits that are ideal in that breed. when you choose a mate for your purebreed dog you choose which characteristics you want that stud dog to have to always improve and bring out the best in the breed......KINDA funny...but I see absolutely NO connection to humans here. People are not breed to better their breed. There is no IDEAL human being to strive for....relationships are based instead on love and commitment with one another....reallly more family based then genetically based. You don't meet a person on the streets and say hey let me see yopur papers before I'll go out with you.So when your talking about PURE pedigrees???? hmm I just don't see the point. Geneology....should be more about "family" lines than the pureness of "genetics". 2) I also agree that it can be questioned which birth certificate is more real. What is the point of a birth certificate? To give the child a legal name, to recognize the child's legal parents and to record where they were born and when. When a birthparent relinquishes their rights to the child the child is then (given a new legal name and legal parents.....thus the need for a new certificate of birth to awcknowledge the the legal name and legal parents). How can that be fake? In fact ....once the child has been adopted.....if a birthparent were to for some reason take off with the child and use their original birth certificate to pretend to be the legal parents of the child....then indeed that document would be considered a FAKE...not the ammended birth certificate. Also when an adoptive parent sits before a judge at the time of finalization it is asked if we understand that we will by all rights and purposes be the legal parents of that child as though they had been naturally ours. They have a right to inherit from us (basically...saying that we do consider them our POSTERITY....as though they had literally come from our womb, yet knowing they haven't). When a child is placed for adoption they are "seperated....severed" from their biological family lines and grafted into their new family lines. In the scriptures it talks about olive branches and how a branch of one tree can be grafted into another tree.....as it grafts into the new tree....it feeds off of it, it shares that life giving nutrients and they grow together as one tree. When we get married it's the same way. As we join families we join not only our genes but our talents, behaviors, figures of speech, accents, bad habits, living/health habits, EVERYTHING. How could anyone.....let alone an adoptee really care about their PURE genetic lines. It would be impossible. In EVERYONES family history there will be discrepencies....where a purely biological connection won't always be made or the truth will be hidden. There also comes into play how much one believes in nature verses nurture and their role in the develpment of a child.

I hope this is not getting into a discussion as to what, who is more real or fake to the person most impacted...the person that was born. A REAL birth certificate is to record a birth...period. A child is adopted and that record of birth is AMENED to record who the legel parents are...period. Nothing changes that, thereality is a child is BORN to someone and that record needs to stand and be opened to whom itsrreally about...the child that was born. If that adult person is not interested fine...but don't think that all adopted folks feel that way or don't want to know their heritage. MOM, yu may be looking at this from a mothers view, a mother of a little child. I am looking at it from my view, an adult that was adopted....WHOM also has 5 children of her own. I want this info for not only my sake but their sake also. There is not a complete severence of anything except the fact you become the legal and emotional parents. When those kids become adults it is up to them to decide how and when biofamily will come into their lives. It is not up to any adoptive or bio parent to make that decsion...IT IS MINE...I will do what I feel is right for me and my children...I will decide how important biology is or isn't to me....how greatful, happy, or whatever. My family lines can not be ever completly grafted because I don't have the same genes...we are trully a product of both and until that is understood by all there will continue to be the horrible push/ pulls on who the child really is.....the child/adult is the one to decide...period

Amen dpen. I agree with you and I commend you for saying it better than I could. :D

As a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution, I (or rather my grandmother many years ago) had to prove that I was legitimately descended from a revolutionary war soldier (I am). (This and $4 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks!) This is an instance of geneology being a pedigree, I suppose. My father has great fun explaining how our family is related to this or that person (sometimes famous, sometimes disreputable). None of it says very much about who I really am! The comment about nature/nurture interests me. I have always believed that nurture probably has the upper hand. When I met my bson for the first time as an adult, I was struck by the gestures he makes that remind me incredible of his bfather. (My DH saw the same things.) His personality very definitely fits better into my family than into his afamily. It has been fascinating for me to explore as I get to know him. Dpen6, I agree with you that this is the call of the adult adoptee. The biggest problem that I see is that so often it seems there's no way for the adoptee to access the information on the original birth certificate. As a birth mom, I hope that my family and my history has and will enrich D's life. He will take from it what he wants. I appreciate the fact that he has made me and his bfamily part of his life. I can only continue to be as open as I can with him and be willing to share any information I have. (And continue to watch how nature and nurture intertwine to create a unique individual.)

As I have said before I too believe it is up to the adoptee to choose which geneology line they want to use for themselves or if they want to use both. But I do find it offensive that someone would not consider my adoptive children part of my PURE Geneological line. Or would think that my families geneology would be one big lie. It's one thing to say "YOU" feel your geneological line isn't Pure. But the OP is speaking more in general terms saying .....it's wrong for anyone to mess with or falsify their pedigree's by including chidlren who are not blood decendants.....or at least that is the impression I'm getting. Just trying to help share my opinion that....that is not the case for everyone. And how I feel it can be very hurtful to her child....if she doesn't begin to realize the importance that "ammended birth certificate might mean to her daughter....as well as her place and RIGHT in her adoptive families geneology.

MOM, I agree that an adopted person "should" have theright to be included in familiy geneolgy I have to admit learning my afamilies geneolgy was/is very important to me. I grew up hearing the stories and loved every minute of it. When doing a family history stuff in school there is was no question that I was using my afam's. When, in science learning about eye color..I was very open in the fact that ..well..mine is not going to come out right....I am adopted....got blank looks from teachers. It really didn't bother me much, yes it seperated me but it really wasn't truamatic. As far as ure geneological line. I believe that there is no such thing. I don't know but this might get me bashed, but I do beleive that children, all children should be included in genelogical searches but ther should be a descriptive that that childwas adopted. It, IMO, doesn't change the fact that they are the children of whomever but it is keeping it honest. I see nothing wrong with that. Kathy, There really is no way to get geneological info off a BC ..but at least you canstart with a name. Responding to a previous post of yours. ITS HOPELESS , all the lessons in the world won't help my singing.unless of course that somewhere I am related to celine Dion...hmmm, naaa.LOL

Dpen,I understand that the BC can't provide everything but it does give the name (or names) that may provide a starting place. BTW, as a voice teacher I will state again that if you can hear the changes in pitch (can recognise different songs - without the words) you CAN learn to sing. (I'm not guaranteeing you could be a solist!) My family history (what I know of it) is certainly not pure! That's probably what makes it fun!

I want to touch on something that dpen said, "all children should be included in genelogical searches but there should be a descriptive that the child was adopted". My uncle did this when he was putting together the family tree. Both my brother and are are listed as adopted on there, but he is also adding in my birth family history to my name and will do the same for my brother if we ever find his b-family. I do not have a problem with this in fact it helps clarify things for future generations. I also think it is wonderful that he is including my b-family history in their too. I have discovered along my genealogy research that my b-family is related to the famous Hatfields and I have seen some of the roots traced back to England. On my adoptive family side my uncle has traced our family history all the way back to the pharaohs of Egypt. Now this was about 7 years ago when I first say this and according to my mother he has traced it back further. Family history has always fascinated me and I have even begun a scrapbook/photo album to hand down to my children. It will be filled with interesting stories from my a-family and stories of my b-family. When I first started my search for my b-family I found a story online that was written by my b-great grandfather and it told of the family history of how they settled in Texas. In the very first paragraph he tells of how important family history is and I want to share it with y'all. "I had my eightieth birthday last April so I am getting along in years which makes me realize that I am one of a very few of the generation of my family still alive. I feel that out of love for my children and grandchildren and those yet to be born that it is my duty to pass on what I know and have learned of the history of our family so they can have and cherish the memory of their roots and heritage of a pioneer family that helped settle this great country of ours that we live in and enjoy." To me that says it all and when I first read that I was in tears. ALL history from both families should be shared and passed along.

1. Once again.... I was not comparing dogs to humans.... just the frustration of running across false pedigrees. Example: I wanted to know if PRA (an hereditary eye disease in Italian Greyhounds) ran in my line and the lines of the mates I was investigating. Then I find out that there are false pedigrees in the breed which made my efforts more difficult. It would be just as frustrating to me if I were trying to trace a hereditary medical problem in my own pedigree and found out that someone along the line was adopted and the adopted parents were included in the pedigree instead of the biological parents. That whole section behind the aparents would be of no use to my search because their bloodline has nothing to do with my bloodline.... and the part of my bparents that was missing may very well have had my answer. I don't understand why that is so hard for some people to understand. 2. I realize that when "they are separated.... severed from their biological families lines they are grafted into their new family lines". But that merely involves their HISTORY and has nothing to do with their hereditary BLOODLINES. Perhaps we should start a new trend. Pedigrees should not only involve names of the bparents but also should include the aparents. Then too the medical histories, talents, mannerisms and all other heredity traits should be included from the bparents and also all the traits of the aparents since they are the main influence in the child's upbringing and the child will surely pick up some of those traits. Ok, ok... so a lot of people don't get into the their pasts, but for whoever wants to, adoptee, aparent, bparent, biological child.... you name it, the whole story will be there. Woudln't that be nice. Unfortunately, not every adoptee knows their bparents names, (or are not even told they are adopted).... and this is what worries me about my little girl.... and also the information that I would like her to have, if she wants it, and for any future generations in my line that may want it. 3. I was under the impression that a BC was to record the genetic/biological parents of a child (the next generation on a pedigree of that line) and that anything other than that would be considered false. But if it's only to give the names of the legal parents then that clears that up. 4. I guess I should have come on here and analyzed how everyone feels, thinks and talks before writing anything.... so as not to step on any toes. But with the way people are, this would have been impossible, for there will always be someone who will take things wrong, or not understand, or be too sensitive and over react. I know I'm not a perfect writer but at least there were a few that understood my meaning and that's all I can hope for. 5. I realize that bmothers don't have any rights once they give up their child but that doesn't take away from the fact that some bmothers didn't want to give up their own flesh and blood. They didn't want someone else raising their child, after all, that child is a part of their heart and they wanted them to be a part of their life as well. They think about them all the time and wonder if they're being loved and taken care of properly. They long to see what they look like. To touch them. To feel their heart beat against theirs just one more time with a hug. We may not seem like much to some adoptee's since we didn't actually get to raise them and love on them.... but I hope that they remember this. If it wasn't for the bparents.... they would not be here to love their aparents. Just my thoughts and replies to comments made. I hope that all made sense. My brain is tired.

What a great story, Sniffles.

Just to jump in...lol When my son had to present a genealogy chart for school everyone was puzzled. There was me with my adopted name, then my bparents listed, then my bdad's birthfather listed (bdad was listed under his adopted name) and bmom's dad had changed HIS surname so his paternal line was under the true spelling. Plus another time when the bank asked him for his mother's maiden name, he didnt know which to list.....lol Mary

See what I mean about how things can get confusing? I think that a BC should ONLY list the Bparents because they were the ones responsible for the birth... period. Then a separate document (with a different title) should be used for the aparents.

I grew up Mormon, and I know how important "pedigrees" (I don't like that word, either) are for many people. When my son and I do our family trees now, we do what I call a "family bush": It shows both the social and biological sides of our families. His "bush" includes his adoptive family, which comes through me, and his biological family. My "bush" includes my stepfather and his family as well as my mother's family and my father's. As an anthropologist by trade, I believe that human beings are both social and biological creatures, and we're shaped by our family histories as much as by our genes. A family tree that only includes one side of that equation is just ignoring the facts. (And when, oh when, oh WHEN are the genealogists going to catch up with the fact that many people do not live in nuclear families? That's always been true, throughout history. It's just bull to pretend that the two-parent family, with no remarriages or divorces, is what everybody has.)

I am sorry, but I personally do not want to go through life using two different papers for identification. That is ridiculous IMHO to have to show one for my birth and one for my adoption. Having 2 separate documents would be extremely confusing for me, AS AN ADOPTEE, to go through life with. When I apply for a job, it would mean showing them one document for my birth, them one for my adoption. Which frankly is none of their dang business anyway. The simple fact is that when a child is placed for adoption, the birth parents terminate their rights to that child. Which is why the birth certificate is AMENDED to show the adoptive parents as the parents. The OBC is sealed away. Now I do feel strongly that the OBC should be made available to all adoptee when they reach a certain age. There is absolutely nothing wrong with COMBINING both adoptive and birth family tree, like my uncle is doing. That in itself should CLEAR UP ALL confusion when some one of the future generation is researching the family tree. Boulderbabe, I love the bush idea. I think I may use that for my family book I am putting together. BTW, most genealogy trees that I have seen do not show medical history. So I do not understand the point of researching a birth family tree for medical history. None of the ones I found on my birth family said anything that could help me. I had to hear it from my birth grandparents.

Would everyone prefer that I use the word 'bloodline' instead of 'pedigree' even though pedigree is a ligit word to use for the recording of a human beings bloodline? Sniffles.... the BC would be the only certificate that would be needed. As you said.... it's none of their (or anyones) business if you are adopted. That should be left of to you to decide who to tell. But this would have to be something that is started now, since up to now a lot of adoptee's don't have access to their OBC and some don't even know they are adopted. As I said in the post before the last one I wrote... perhaps we should start combining the family trees of both the A and B parents, including the medical histories, talents, mannerisms, etc. so the adoptee's and also furture generations can get the whole picture. Like with what you're uncle is doing, and also the bush system like boulderbabe mentioned. But I doubt it could be done as a rule since there are so many rules and laws that would prevent it.