How common is openness?

Openness varies from situation to situation and from time to time in a child's life, IMHO.I know quite a few families that keep contact with somebody from the birth family---a grandparent, an aunt--at least by telephone and letter. On the flip side, I know very few families that do ongoing face-to-face visits with the birthparents. That's pretty hard.So much depends on what the birthparents' issues are. IMHO, most of them are not horrible people, but not wonderful people who just made a mistake, either. They're average people with some pretty big problems, like addiction or mental illness, that can make them unsafe to be around, no matter how well-intentioned they are.

we have two foster-adopted kids. totally separate. We have no contact with son's birthfamily, frequent contact with daughter's birthfamily. So, in our case it is a 50/50 thing.

I'd guess it is more common in family situations where the parents are, by definition, known to the first parents--and I'm taking "open" not as the ideal relationship talked about on other boards, but as any situation where the first parents know who and/or where the parents and child are. I think in the foster world, that is way open. Personally, I am not in a good place with regard to openness right now. We are fostering a relative out of state. For a little over the first year and a half, I worked intensely hard at openness, supervising call visitation, opening my home to the one (and only) personal visit they bothered to make in two years, sending tons of photos, homework papers, etc., making a video, trying to keep them updated on activities, schedules, report cards, the whole bit. Rarely was there ever any acknowledgment let alone appreciation for these things. Just continued and escalating harassment from them and acting out by my fd who, I think, felt threatened by and less secure with all this openness, etc. Since we stepped back and insisted the agency supervise calls, calls stopped due to the first parents' lack of interest/action. Since I stopped automatically sending photos and info, waiting to see if they would actually ask for something, they haven't (although I do send a photo of her with a bday or Christmas gift from them just so I won't be accused of withholding the item). I don't worry about being compassionate toward first parents or their wants. Whatever is healthy for fd is by definition healthy for them, too, even if painful. Indulging them at her expense does neither any good. I think in fost-adopt situations, openness is definitely a double-edged sword. Ironically, despite the problems, fd enjoyed getting the "best" first parents had to offer in structured and supervised contacts. To the extent that she builds her sense of self based on what she knows of her source, it is not all bad, she has seen some of the good. OTOH, she also got strong doses of reality when some of the contacts didn't go so well and many were missed due to first parents' issues. She knows she is at risk for the same familial illnesses, she knows there is no lovely alternative fantasy family to run away to, she even knows and understands she needs to focus on catching up on what she missed when she was younger. She doesn't seem to have many questions--at 7, she was perceptive enough to tell me once that "No, I don't have questions, I already have too many answers!" The one answer she really wants is a final one from a judge ending the appeals, secondary plans, etc., so that she can really root and grow.

Boy, does this feel familiar, Hadley! I feel so awful about it, but sometimes I think the whole purpose in "openness" for us is for my son to get a dose of his birthparents behavior while we're still in a reasonably controlled situation and while I can keep him safe. Right now the biggest problem is just that his birthmom (who is the one we have contact with) is just really inconstant. Sometimes she calls, sometimes she doesn't, sometimes she'll return calls from me or from our son, sometimes not. She rarely remembers birthdays and if she does, she remembers them as the wrong date, and so on. I very much want my son to know how much she loves him----and she does, a lot. But I also want him to know that she's erratic, that you can't really count on her, and that not everything she says is entirely accurate. I think he needs to know these things as a part of knowing why he is not living with her.

I'm not in a good place re: "openess" either...though I can't say I ever was. But how did we decide? It was really decided for us. Having never considered adopting any of our fc's, we had no reason to research or ask any questions. It all came up very suddenly without warning. DD's biomom, for the entire 2 years that we fostered dd, made it a point to let everyone know SHE was the MOTHER & she had RIGHTS! (even when she didn't). She told cw, sw, dw, anyone, that "you" can't do that (whatever it was)..she's MY daughter! We were ready to move out of state; I had already gone. Bioparents were expected to drag out process with appeals & such, so we decided DW's moving date (& fc's to new homes) based on first trial date. DW handling 2 sn fc's, bs & long distance move by herself & out of the blue, days before trial sw calls & says biomom willing to relinquish ONLY if dd can stay with US. Says dw needs to come immediately(30 miles) for "meeting" before biomom changes her mind. Biomom & dw never allowed to talk to each other. Dw never asked if she wanted continued contact, only what kind and how often. No one said it was "legally binding", no one said it was any kind of "agreement" either. DW mentioned to sw how great it was that biomom finally decided to put dd's needs first. Sw said nothing.(* note: dw still didn't understand that it was "contract" like any other when she signed it. ) "Meeting" was really "mediation" & had we known, we would've taken it more seriously , asked for more time so I could attend & certainly asked to speak directly to biomom. Later, we found out that judge pushed for post adoption contact in virtually ALL of his cases. He felt it was "pc". Biomoms lawyer was also leaving state so suddenly wasn't behind biomom "fighting all the way" anymore. Biodad said he would relinquish if biomom would first. Judge knew biofamilies and wanted us to take dd away from both of them. We just wanted to know 1 way or the other if we were moving with 1 kid or 2. So lots of people, wanted to "et 'er done". However, DW was quite crushed to learn with biomom's very first letter that biomom had NO intention of relinquishing either dd or her mommy title.That was something else we found out later...that another reason judges push for these post adoption contract things is for incentive to biofamilies to relinquish rather than go all the way with tpr. Many things played into it. Had we not been distracted with moving & such, it probably would not have happend. It's been miserable. No, not all foster children have "bad" bio parents, but if they are that close to tpr or have been tpr'd already, they clearly aren't capable of making good choices. TPR doesn't happen overnight--it means they have consistently made poor choices for a period of time even AFTER losing their kids. Then the CPS & courts stick me with a contract binding me to someone THEY couldn't deal with. DD has no knowledge of any of this & currently has zero interest in bio families.sorry ...I'm long winded, so sayeth DW

aldes-Wow, if she voluntarily relinquished, weren't her actual parental rights terminated then? How can you adopt if they weren't? The agreement is just an agreement, I hope. It can be voided if it includes safety exits for you or if the first mother has breached her part. If you strongly believe and have evidence that would hold up in court that conditions of a safety hatch you can probably simply declare the contract void and stop honoring it without going to court. Then it would up to her to sue you. Depending on how functional/organized she is, she may well not. If she does and your evidence is pretty obvious/strong, you probably needn't worry. Actual rights are much more intractable. If she has actually retained her parental rights, then you would have to launch a private suit to terminate them and satisfy the grounds for termination established in your state law--pretty tricky to do once all that evidence is sealed with the foster care case. As part of its past campaign to get us to accept legal custody of our fd without TPR on the parents, the ss agency told us "Oh, you can always terminate their rights yourselves later if you need to." After consulting several lawyers, however, we found out just how difficult and costly this would be to do privately, especially on an interstate case. Legalities aside, it is not acceptable for the biomother to hang onto a mommy title or speak to your dd as if she is still her parent. I hope you can find some relief from that situation as it can only disrupt your daughter's attachment and healthy development as a family member. Good luck.

Another thought about openness - it does not necessarially need to be with the child birthparents themselves. I know some adoptions that are open with extended family instead. Perhaps an aunt or uncle who are good people but unable to raise the child themselves, but who can be counted on to be a positive influence and answer family and health history questions. Or with a grandparent who is still too close to destructive birth parents to be given custody of the children, but with whom the children can enjoy supervised occasional visits. Or siblings with whom they cannot be placed, but who are deeply missed. Etc. Just pointing out that "openness" of some level can sometimes be achieved with other relatives even when the birthparents are not yet appropriate.

We have adopted 3 (almost 4...still waiting to finalize our youngest that we've had over 2 1/2 years). We have some form of openess with 3 of them and a completely closed with our youngest daughter. The idea of openess kinda just presented itself when we had our third adoption. We agreed to give it a try and now 2 1/2 years later we now have some degree of openess with 3 of my childrens birthfamilies and we'd love to get in contact with our youngest daughters birthfamily as well, but haven't had the opportunity. It is VERY difficult. But I hope the benefits for our children in the long run will outweigh all the hard stuff we've had to work through. Some situations/relationships are easier and healthier than others. So it's just a matter of figuring out what LEVEL of contact is best and with which birthfamily members.

Biomom did relinquish, technically, but let the record show that she was at tpr's door and ringing the doorbell! There really was nothing voluntary about it. The effect is the same...no parental rights. Our agreement is legally binding. We did consult an attorney in biomom's state & he suggested same thing as you did...let her sue us. He did not think she would find an attorney that would even take the case especially where we live so far away. I have never been behind this contact at all. It has caused a LOT of friction at times. I hate to see DW go through "the letter cyle" as I've come to call it. BUT, now that we have finally decided to end it, I'm kind of, not glad, exactly....but um, I guess maybe satisfied or content...that we have given it plenty of time & (DW) tried to put her heart into it & nothing ever changed. I love that "you can take care of that later" crap, too...I understand they want you out of their face, out of their office & the case off their desk...but jeez, give thought to the family a LITTLE bit, huh?

Relinquishment is 'voluntary' termination of parental rights. We have 1 child whose parents relinquished; 3 children whose parents were all TPR'd.We have some openess with 2 bio families. One bio parent with whom we have contact is only through a third party and all contact is non-identifying. One of the children we've adopted is a relative of ours, so we obviously have some bio family contact. Not alot, no formal contract, and solely at our discretion.We aren't big fans of total openess. This CAN work, but in our opinion (DH and I have discussed this and discussed this as we have 4 children with 4 separate bio families) giving children info and having the most minimal contact until the child is an adult and choses, from the basis of being an able adult, to establish and maintain contact is what we've decided is best. Children are often the 'monkey in the middle' with face-to-face contact with bio family and their stability and security can be seriously undermined without the adoptive parents' knowledge because the child often hides these feelings of deep insecurity. This isn't EVERY case, and one can't make blanket statements and decisions, but this is what we've decided in the cases we are dealing with.

My daughter is in contact with a brother who is a few years older. She has asked to be allowed to contact her grandfather and I have asked the counselor and SW if it would be a good idea. They, knowing the case since the beginning, said no. If she were their child they would not. Too many things happened and he is not stable enough.

How can any birth mother forget her child's birthday? She was there when it happened and I wouldn't think that's the sort of experience anyone is likely to forget.

My daughter is 11 years old (this year) and this is the first year that I have not had to be reminded (or totally forgot).Some things are just to traumatic - additionally, not having the child in your every day life, will sometimes have an impact on your ability to remember or not.I'm sure you don't know how offensive your comment is - but if I can give you a frame of reference, its similar to how you feel when someone tells you that you can't possibly love your adopted children as much as your real children...Just something to think about...ETA: I am a birthmother in open adoption - I placed at birth in domestic adoption...

Eomaia- I have wondered that as well. How very hurtful and sad that must make a child to know that they weren't even thought of on their birthdays. (assuming they know this fact). I know as a child/teen it really bothered me. My parents were divorced when I was 6. I was born on my dad's birthday which I thought was so special. But growing up it was a great source of pain/hurt for me that my own father couldn't even remember my birthday....seeing that I was born on his birthday....how could he not remember. I understand what Brandy is saying to a point. Plus some people are just better with remembering dates than others. I'm one of those people. Even when it comes to very sad/tramatic life changing dates. I remember them. But as you said Eomaia...I really don't see how someone could forget a date so important as the day your child was born. (unless they "purposefully" have tried to block it from their minds, in order to forget that painful time in their life). You'd think the birthmother would know that date like the back of her hand. But for the child....I would think (from my own experience) that it could be very painful to know that your birthmother can't remember your date of birth. It would be painful for me as an adoptive mother to hear that my childrens birthparents don't remember when they were born. That was the day my child entered this world...something I wasn't able to be apart of. I know when I think of my childrens birthmothers and think of all those precious early moments that they got to have that I missed out on....it pains me to.. think that they don't "CHERISH" those times, those dates. I think that's what Eomaia is talking about. It's hard to imagine a birthmohter not CHERISHING those things and holding them close to her. (surely not meant to offend) I think the important thing to remember (which I forget as well)is that people handle pain/loss differently....and just because you don't remember the childs birthdate...doesn't mean you care for them any less and surely with your constant involvement in your childs life through-out the years your birthdaughter will know and feel that love and that is more important than being remembered on your actual birthdate in the long run.