Tuesday Topic - Mary Winkler case

Ani,I haven't followed this case that closely. However, I do know the details. In my heart, I feel that this whole scenario is a sad, sad tragedy. Not only for her, but mostly for the children involved. For the most part, we are not responsible for making sure "everyone" else follows the rules. However, it is important the people be held accountable for their actions. As Christians we have to remember that preachers are just portals to spread God's word. They are not Godly and shouldn't be put up on pedistals. I think that big issue in this case was that a wife murdered her husband, who happened to be a preacher. If it was some other average woman, married to Joe Shmoe, would the public be more apt to believe that she killed him because he abused her? Probably. Preachers are human, and Preachers do sin. The facts are this: She killed her husband, and her defense was, she was abused. That's what we know. Now we don't know if it were true or not. We don't know the circumstances either. But she's a mother. She claimed that her husband, a preacher, abused her in awful ways. She did the only thing she knew to do to protect her children and herself. Don't get me wrong, I do not, nor will I ever condone murder. There is no excuse for it. However, being a victim of domestic violence myself, I can say that you often feel lost. Let me back up a little and give some history. I was with my ex for 7 years by the time I got a divorce. He was a violent man, mostly verbally/emotionally and sometimes physically. He often used intimidation as a weapon and would "bank" on the fact that I feared him. Despite family and friends telling me to get out, I did not. I have a 3 year old little boy how started off his precious little life seeing and hearing the violence, nearly everyday. There were times that I just believed I couldn't get out. I feared for my safety and my son's to the point that it was paralizing, but I couldn't take the steps to leave. Mostly because of the nagging "I will be a single mother of a small child, where will I go? How will I get a job?" and most importantly, "WHAT IF HE FOLLOWS ME?" For awhile, I really did believe that in order for me to leave him......ever.......to fully get away from him, he would have to be dead. Now, I never considered killing him. But I believed that he would "never let me go" so long as I lived. Because of that fear alone, I felt I couldn't go. Then you add into account the fact that he was the "perfect Man" to most everyone he met. He put on a good act. The caring husband, the loving father..........well, til the end. So, say I did leave, and took my lil guy. Will the courts believe this man is a monster? Will the courts help me to protect myself and my son? What if they don't? Etc. Needless to say, I did finally get up the courage to walk out one day and just prayed relentlessly that everything would somehow work out. People who have never experienced domestic violence don't understand the turmoil that the victims do go thru every day of their lives, even after they leave the abuser. So many times I heard "why don't u just leave?" I never believed it was that simple. In the Winkler case, not only did she have societies pressures, but the pressures of the church. The most important thing in "saving" a woman of domestic violence is reminding her every single day that you are there for her no matter what. Not judging or telling her what she "should" do. For Ms. Winkler, maybe if she had some friends that she could confide in at the church or anywhere else, that she could seek advice and help from, maybe this tragedy could have all been avoided. I made the first step and filed divorce papers and an order of protection simultaneously. But, and you can ask many people here, it took me a VERY long time to do so. Knowing that I had people here at adoption.com, friends that I could see and a family to support me, eventually gave me the courage to walk away. The facts as we know it are that she killed her husband and claimed that he was abusive. I am predisposed to believe her. Whether that is true or not, if she had more people to turn to and possibly talk to, if she felt she had other options, she may not have done what she did. Do I condone it? No. Do I understand it, ABSOLUTELY!

I do agree, Christina, that there is no excuse for murder. It was not an act of self-defense, at least, not in the moment.My whole points is how lost both Mary and her husband felt because (1) he was a preacher and, (2) his family is well known. They were supposed to be perfect and had no one to turn to. It is our jobs as Christians to be there for everyone, even the ones we presume to be "perfect."

I can't figure out how to grab a quote, but wanted to reply that, yes, I was in an abusive relationship in highschool - nobody would listen to me when it was just name calling & emotional but when he got physically abusive I ended it. I got the strength from God-not any friends or family - he came from a wealthy, picture perfect family & I was just labeled the "crazy one" for not being honored enough to join that family. I choose self preservation over the expensive presents or social status. If you want the Norman Rockwell picture perfect family you get what you get. I guess I can sympathize more with the victim becasue he had no chance to defend himself. I think in short I feel no responsibility to those with more money & status because they have the means I did not. I'm drawn to help children in the foster care system & assume that adults can make better choices. I don't feel an obligation to support those in powerful positions - they put themselves there & should have the tools to deal with the pressures they invite in their lives. However, I realize at the end of the day there is a dead man & children that lost their father & a woman going on TV discussing the horrible abuse she claims she endured for years - I know that to this day my closest friends don't know the abuse I endured - I can hardly type this without getting chocked up. I could not do this on TV & my abuse was nothing to what she claims she'd been thru. I find preachers/priests with abuse/drugs/prostitutes in their closets to be hyprocrites. I find my strength in God & don't feel an obligation to offer support to people that choose a profession in the position to support & guide the congregation/community.

I still always ask myself what Jesus would do in situations. Of course, He'd know the whole truth. I don't think he would turn his back on a hurting family just because the guy's parents are rich.I do believe as a society we do put preachers on pedestals and we do tend to back them in a corner. I also feel if something is bad enough that a murder was committed, then it is not only a problem within the family, but within the congregation, too. I can't help but wonder how no one knew there were problems.I'm not saying Matthew was abusive. I don't know if he was or not. What I do know is, something wasn't quite right. He can never tell us his side. We will never know what all happened. My point of this thread isn't to try to decide who the real victim is. My point is to say as Christians, what kinds of things can we do to help prevent these things from happening. I know things will still happen, but if there is something we can do to help even one family to stop these things, then it is worth it, IMHO.

You are right in that somebody else must have known if the abuse was going on. I firmly believe that any person knowing of any abuse of anybody (child or adult) has a moral & legal obligation to interviene-yet it doesn't seem to happen. My foster/adopted sons 5 year old brother was walking around with bite marks, bruising & 2 broken ribs the week before he was ultimatly beaten to death & nobody reported it. Not one neighbor in the small apartment complex heard this child screaming for his life? I doubt it. His mother in the next room? Nope. He could have been saved but God had other plans. He had no voice or means to protect himself, I guess that is why I have less (but do have some) sympathy for adults in similar abusive situations. We live in a country of free choice & when I made the choice not to be abused I was ridiculed. (this was 20 years ago) Yes as a community we should support the weaker ones-I tend to assume an adult that chooses public service would have equiped themselves with a support system that won't fail them. Perhaps churches & places of worship should provide outside support for the leader. Priests have retreats annually in my church... I'm not sure if it is mandated or volunteer but it is available to them. It is a good question & thought provoking topic, though...

I am sorry to hear what happened to your son's brother. That is horrible. I would imagine some people have a hard time sleeping at night now.I always wonder when news shows break out about some sort of abuse related death why everyone interviewed always says, "you would never have known!" "They were the nicest people, how could these things happen?"I do not think any of us are above sin. There was only one sinless man and He died on the cross for our sins.I do see your point about Matthew being the victim being portrayed as the abuser. We don't know if he was an abuser or not and no, he can't defend himself.I thank you for getting back to the whole point of my thread.

This is an interesting topic, Ani. I think we should also ask this though. In the church, where the preacher, priest........whatever we may call them, how does one go to another member of the church and express what's going on. Mary was married TO the Preacher of this Church, I don't know her by any means, but how do you go to your church for help, when it's the "leader" of the church that is the alledged abuser? Much like a woman who is in an abusive relationship with a cop. How do you go to the police force for help when the abuser is one of them?It really is sad. I believe that more people should take a stand against abuse. More people should offer help or whatever, and maybe if more people were concerned, less people would be killed or seriously injured at the hands of their abusers and less would die for what Mary used as "self-defense."

Just to clarify, div, he wasn't the "leader" of the church. The congregation has elders that are the leaders. He was definitely a role model and many look at preachers as a way to live their life. Also, his Grandfather and his Father are well known within the church of Christ. That had to make it even harder for both of them to seek help.I do wish one or both had felt comfortable enough to go to the Elders of their congregation and say, "Look, we have some serious problems and need some serious help. Can you either help us or point us in the right direction?"

This sort of thing just makes me so glad I am not the one making the final decisions/judgement for these people. And that the One who is, knows not only the circumstances and details accurately, but also perfectly understands the hearts of those involved. I am so glad I don't have to decide who's guilty and who should get what reward or punishment. Of course, we DO have to strive for some level of understanding, so as to protect ourselves, and offer support to those who need it. For example, we don't need to know for sure if Mary is telling the truth or not (since we are not involved in her life, personally - her family, the jury, others closely involved... well, yes, they have a need to know, and hopefully they know what is true, but we thankfully don't have to know for sure). We need to recognize tht it COULD be true, and in the event of such a situation in someone else's life, what could prevent such a tragedy? What kind of support system could allow for a safe escape, one the abused person could feel safe and confident in? And if it were not true?? then we have to also think of what kind of support to them - their marriage and as individuals - would have let them find support, counseling, whatever, without judgement to avoind this blowing up in their faces. It is mostly a tragedy for the children, of course. But by helping adults involved in bad and tough situations, the children have access to more support and protection, too. In short, to answer your original question, Ani... I don't know. How's that for an answer?? But is IS something that we as a Christian community, and a community at large have to think about.

I agree with you, Juliana.I do know her in-laws. He has done (and will be again) gospel meetings at our church, as has Matthew's grandfather. Her FIL used to be a preacher at my church, but that was before I lived here. So I only know him from gospel meetings.I agree that I'm glad I don't have to make decisions on this. I don't think there is an excuse for murder or that it's justified, but I'm glad i don't have to figure out the consequences either here on earth or in heaven.You are right, He does know their hearts and He knows exactly what happened, and in the end, He is the final judge.

Have heard about this on line (no time for tv) and read this on line this morning about the approved supervised visitation with her children. The children are the victims, and the pain they have to grow up with is almost unbearable to think about. The abuse that may continue as the battles go between the family members, court custody etc. my gut says someone knew about the abuse in this family and chose to look the other way. Someone ignored the signs and my question would be why did so many people whether in church, family or neighborhood fail to alert proper auhtorities? Abuse has no definite look....it might be happening to the child next door....the child you see on the bus.....a child in the mall....a child at church. Abuse happens in all age groups, in all neighborhoods, in all income groups. Rich or poor, Nob Hill or the Hood, Preacher, Senator, Doctor, Attorney, Teacher. Father, Mother....they are all capable of child abuse. Just a small voice, but a voice... You can see by the family photo on line the older child is withdrawn from the father. [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20878913/]Visitation OK€™d for husband killer - Crime & Punishment - MSNBC.com[/url] One can only hope and pray that these precious children grow up with some normality and peace in their lives. We who are Believers CAN make a difference in the lives of those around us. We have given too much ground to the enemy! Let's start taking it back! Speak up and speak out! Don't turn away...

mama_again,It's the middle child you are referring to and honestly, I don't htink it's ok to assume anything by a picture. There are pictures of my family that if you just looked, you'd think my boys were abused. It's just that they didn't want to have theirs made or they weren't smiling at that split second.I know the Winkler family and I am not saying there was not abuse, but I will not say there was, either. I do know something wasn't right and I wish the church had reached out to them more.

I am saddened by this too, but it is a case that makes us open our eyes to those around us especially in our churches. Whether a picture or in person, something like abuse in the family shows up. It is a mask that only can be kept on for so long.

I agree. I do think we need to stop putting preachers and their families on pedestals and stop expecting them to be perfect and provide a safe place for the to fall. I mean, they are expected to do that for us, right? It's a shame that neither Mary nor Matthew felt they could get help for their marriage and their problems.Let's all open our eyes and be sure we are supporting our preacher and his family and being there when they need us.

I wish there was some sort of confidential groups for families of ministers. Who else could better understand what families of ministers have to face than other people in the same circumstances? It would have to be a safe haven like AA so the families could talk without fear of repercusions. I'm not sure how to stop Christians from putting ministers on pedestals. I grew up with a mom who was always very quick to point out that ministers are just men too, so I'm aware of this. But I know people in my church think our minister is like two steps below Jesus in rank of importance. It's a little frightening. I think the bigger the church, the less members, the body of Christ, wants to believe their minister is flawed because big money is involved. If we as Christians start seeing ministers as men whose gift is ministering, we might make it easier for their family members to ask for help when they need it.