A hurting 17 year old just joined our

I don't want to sound harsh, but there is no good answer here. What does he want that you have to offer - a roof over his head and something to eat? He said it - he doesn't want parents or rules and he doesn't want to work at therapy.....I'd say the prospects are pretty grim for this young man - you can't force him to change. A child in his situation has to want to change, to heal, no matter what age they are. Certainly "love" is not enough (doesn't sound like he wants anyone's love) and even attachment therapy at his age and with his attitude would be extremely iffy.Would you be content with him just taking from you by being a boarder and content with him not following the rules, whatever that means, even illegal activity? Fran

to drug test him. And he continues to lose freedoms as he continues to mess up. I'm thinking that eventually he'll give in or he'll leave if he can't deal with the consequences. Just because he says those things doesn't mean that's what he really wants? Does it? I think he's trying his best to alienate us right now to prove that we are just like everyone else he's dealt with.

As I said in my first post, love is not enough. Yes, he means what he says....you have to take those type of statements at face value. Is he just trying to prove that you're just like everyone else? Maybe. If he has his mind made up that no one will ever love him, it's up to him to change that mindset, that's his responsibility, not yours. You cannot work harder at his recovery than he does.....it just never works. You cannot make him love you - you cannot "save" him. He is already a young adult - hopefully at some point in time in his adult life he will want to heal. He may have to go through a lot more bad behavior, even jail time to get to that point. Again, I'm sorry if this sounds too harsh, but a child with what sounds like attachment issues can leave all types of emotional carnage in their wake....yes, they absolutely don't care about you or what their actions would do to you, your family or your marriage - they only care about themselves. If you decide to continue with this child, I want you to go into this situation with your eyes wide open. You need to be realistic about this child's chances of being an emotionally healthy human being. Hopefully the football program can give him some positive habits. Unless he changes his own tune himself, you can't hope for more than that - he will never be a Peyton Manning or Tom Bradley. keep posting - this is a great group here and we're here for you - with my support and prayers,Fran good websites to check out for more info:[URL="http://www.bosleyfoundation.org"]Bosley Home Page[/URL] (the lady that started this is a good friend of mine and lives in Great Bend - she had an adopted child with RAD before anyone ever knew what RAD was)[URL="http://www.attach.org"]Attachment Disorder information and support at ATTACh.org.[/URL][URL="http://www.radzebra.org"]Welcome to Attachment & Trauma Network* - ATN[/URL]

to attachment issues. I know this kid has them. I have two other children who have been dx'd with Attachment issues (although not full blown RAD). They came to us as Foster kids at ages 2 and 3. We adopted them when they were 5 and 6. They are now 8 and 9. We have done holding therapy with the 9 year old. He's also BiPolar and ODD. Our 9 year old still tests us periodically to see if we will throw him away or not. And if I believed every mean thing that came out of his mouth when he was hurting, insecure, and trying to push us away I don't know what I'd do. But I think I've pretty much heard it all at one point or another. I know alot about attachment with younger kids. And I know that I cannot "fix" this older one. I was just wonder what, if anything, you can do to build and establish trust with an older child. What we can do to make him feel more secure with us. I don't think he's full blown RAD either. He knows right from wrong and shows remorse. What he's not dealing with very well are rules and the consequences of his actions.

Lucyjoy has a lots of experience dealing with older RAD kids and transitioning them to adulthood. It's a rough road, that's for sure. She's offline for a bit as she just moved, but you might do a search for her posts in the last couple years to see how her kids are handling that transition.

First off I would never say there is no hope for any kid. I grew up in an abusive home myself and so I can kind of understand where the kids are coming from. There is always hope. Not every kid can be saved, true, but since we don't know this kid and you do, we can't judge. Probably you can't yet either. The fact that this kid is still in school (sounds like it since your dh is his coach) says a lot. He has survived on his own and not been picked up and put in foster care. He has not dropped out of school or been arrested yet. That is good. Even better if he is managing to pass classes with the chaos that is his life. Some people are survivors and want to be helped. If the therapy is not helpful to him, which remember traditional talk therapy is not helpful for RAD. A good friend of mine in high school did rehab and continual therapy, it did not help her and it bored her. The therapist made her talk about the same things over and over. She was trying to be a new person and start new but the therapist actually made it harder for her. She had a feeling the therapist got something out of hearing the gory details of everything bad that had happened in her life over and over. Now, I never went with her so I don't know how right she was, but I do know she did eventually quit therapy but did not go back to drugs. She liked who she became and did not want to go back to that person. So its possible for someone to stay off drugs without continued therapy, don't know how likely, just that it's possible. I would suggest having him help you in the kitchen and stuff. Give him opportunities to talk. Ask him questions about his day. We play a game in the car or at the dinner table where I ask everyone the best thing that happened today (usually recess, LOL) and the worst thing (often math class) and the strangest thing. Invite his friends over to watch Tv. Give them some space, let him have friends over when your other two are busy in another room or not home. Let the boys have space, but remember they will always be glad to see you if you have food or drinks. So you can walk in with a plate of hot cookies and they probably won't even mind you staying to chat for a minute. Stay positive, and don't ask so much about his past, but about today. Don't critisize the show he is watching, but ask them to explain it to you and try to find something positive to say. I raised my sister who is now back with a couple of kids. But when she was 17 I remember once walking in when she was watching something and a good looking man was teaching or something. I said that if teachers had looked like that in my high school I would have paid better attention. That opened things for her to tell me about her teachers and what she liked and didn't like. I told her about a couple of my favorite and not so favorite teachers, but kept my stories short to give her more time. When she came to live with us she was 16 and a mess. She had done drugs and slept around. She is now working and taking care of her kids. Yes, she is living with me, but that's because she saw she was getting into a bad situation and asked if she could come here to get a fresh start and get out of that situation. (land lord related to her ex, who though married had developed a huge crush on her, and his wife who babysat for her, wanted her kids for herself, they went to her church and were also at functions where she brought her kids to see grandparents and in the same social circle) Anyway, I am proud of her. She has been a huge help and is a good mother. Some people looked at who she was when we got her and thought she was hopeless. She was not. I am so glad I did not beleive those people, but tried anyway. I would be careful leaving the younger kids with him for a while. We did eventually let me sister babysit, but not at first. We had two little ones, like 2 and 4 when she moved in. It's not going to be easy to bond with him. He has been hurt, but maybe there is hope. Maybe he will just leave, but you will know in your heart you tried to reach out.

Wow Momraine. That was a powerful post. Thank you.

I think I need to hear both sides. One thing I will not do is sacrifice my other four kids or my husband for this one. And I need to hold that boundary firm. And I will. And we haven't got there YET. He's been with us two months now. Rewind to three weeks ago, and we'd had a couple of really great weeks. Had fun with him, his grades had come up tremendously, he was doing well with the family, in a good mood. He and I had stayed up late one night watching a movie together, and he'd put his head in a pillow on my lap and let me stroke his hair (all initiated by him). It was very much a bonding thing to me. I felt like it was a show of trust and affection on his part. He had two clean UAs during this time. Then on Wednesday night he came home that night with a lip ring through his lip. He hadn't asked us or told us he was going to do it. And because he's known my husband so long, he had to have KNOWN that facial piercings are one of my husband's pet peeves. We have not made issues on how he dresses, his hair, how he looks because those things are not important battles to fight. We also let him dip chew in the house. Again, not important in the long run and not a battle we'd win. But this was something that we felt strongly we did not want that example set for our younger kids. So we told him then that he could not wear it at school or at home. That's when things went downhill. He took it out, but his attidtude went South. He was withdrawn, hateful, oppositional. He wouldn't let me touch him anymore....even casual pats on the back. That weekend we hardly saw him. Then Sunday night we knew for sure that he had been smoking pot again. So on Monday we tested him, and it was positive. Because of that, his curfew went down on the weekends, and he lost the priviledge of staying the night at his friend's house. He came home last night 30 minutes past curfew and smelling of pot. His grades are slipping again, and he's sleeping in school again. DH told him last night that as a consequence he will stay home entirely tonight. That if he left he might as well take his stuff with him. J told us last night that he'd be leaving. He and DH did not have school today. I woke him up when I left, and told him that I love him. That he's making a choice not just whether or not to stay with us, but a choice about how he wants to live the rest of his life. I told him that I love him, and makes a good choice. I left the house this morning really not expecting him to be there when I get home tonight. Then DH called me later this morning. He'd gotten up and taken him to breakfast. They "seemed" to have a pretty open talk. J said he cannot deal with an earlier curfew. J told my DH that this wasn't his fault that "I'm a lost cause." We were supposed to have a family counseling session on Monday morning with DH and I, J and his rehab counselor. J had been refusing to go. They negotiated that he could have his old curfew back if he agrees to go to this session with us on Monday and try. I know that the rehab counselor is going to force him into personal therapy. That's what this session is for...so that we can present a united front. Up to this point he's adamantly refused any kind of counseling (he's never been before). J also said that he's not going to wrestle this year. He does not want the added stress. He wants to concentrate on getting through this rehab program. Like one of you said, he either does care somewhat and wants help......or he's a master, master manipulator. And I don't know yet which one it is. I "feel" like its the first one. He has other places that he could go live where they wouldn't care what he did. Surely if he truly doesn't care, then his life would be easier there.

It is time to set some firm and realistic boundaries and expectations. You need to ask him why he wants to live with you, what he is looking for. If he wants to be a part of your family he has to live by your families rules and expections. For me, that would mean taking responsibility for his actions, no more marijuana (maybe investigate alternative ways to cope with pain), abiding by curfews, etc. If all he is looking for is a safe place to sleep at night, is that okay with you?