How do I word this, and am I unusual?

You asked in an earlier post if anyone knows what percentage of potential birth mothers lie about their usage of illegal drugs and/or alcohol. I really don't think there have been any academic studies on this issue. At least none that I know of.Wow, have times changed that drastically in the past 30 years? Are most birth mothers really snorting crystal meth and cocaine nowadays, or pickling their unborn babies in alcohol?? Are we all pathological liars?? Believe it or not, most of us truly love our babies and would NEVER endanger them in our wombs if we could possibly help it. And most of us would never, ever intentionally be a "bad influence" on our birth sons and daughters. Especially those birth mothers who have placed their precious children into open adoption.Since your original question was about the open-adoption versus semi-open adoption (or semi-closed, depending on one's point of view), I guess I would advise you to stick with your original intention of putting "semi-open" on your profile. You can always change it to a fully open adoption at a later time. It's more honest, it's more fair.... On a side note, I would in all likelihood not even consider a profile that stated "open adoption on a case-by-case basis". Birthmoms have a hard enough time giving up their children without being made to feel that they might not be "good" enough to meet with the adoptive parents' approval.Trust goes both ways. I have always considered adoption to be a "sacred trust". I don't know how to allay your fears of having your potential birth mother lie to you about drug usage or anything else, for that matter. I CAN tell you, however, that the great majority of birthmoms love their children and only want what's best for them. Peace. :love:

aclee, I am glad that you have faith and that you are so detailed in finding out what kind of placements you are comfortable with and what kind of openess you will be willing and able to sustain.However, PAPs can and do embellish on dear birthmom letters and profiles. You might not, but some do. If you want proof ask bparents on this very forum.And just to support and add on to what Raven said, many birthparents care immensely for their children. More than I feel anyone can even imagine sometimes. I'm not sure if you're just trying to overprepare for the chance of being lied to, or if you buy into the stereotype that we're all liars and alcoholics and drug addicts and that it's those behaviors that led us to placement in the first place. I truly hope it's that you're overpreparing and just adressing those fears early on. Because I can tell you right now, if I was an eparent that was telling you or a SW that my child was NOT drug/alcohol exposed, and my statement wasn't trusted and was questioned and assumed to be a lie, I would feel very disheartened and hurt.

No, I'm not assuming all PBM are liars and drug addicts etc. I"m not thinking I'm above anyone, or anything like that. I just pointed out that if I had a concern (concern does not equal paranoia or an all inclusive fear) about PBM that could lie about drug and alcohol use, that saying I would not take any infant exposed to alchol WOULD NOT protect me from that fear. I'm not asking for protection from that fear. I'm asking to understand it. I don't understand a lot of things about this process. I am not asking anyone to protect me from the things that concern me, I'm asking for explanations so I can understand them, and maybe, be less concerned. Unfortunatly, before beginning to reseach my adoption here, all you ever hear about adoption are the horror stories...bad news makes better news than good news... I also never made a sweeping generalization that PBM do not care about their children. Clearly they do, and we would like to find one that does, since we want an open adoption. If I believed that all BM did not care about their children than why would I even both with an open adoption? I only questioned if PBM did not care about the effect of drugs and alcohol on the fetus they they would use freely. This means addicts. This doesn't mean all PBM. Don't put everyone in a class with addicts. Does this even mean addicts don't care about thier children...not really, it just means that they care more about their addiction than they do about the fetus's health...at least in MY OPINION. Could they eventually recover and care about their children. I'm sure. I didn't come to this forum to make sweeping generalizations about anyone, or to insult anyone. I'm honestly not sure why you're looking through all the things I'm trying to say and ask, and picking out the things you can take as an insult. I came here because I was curious about the effect drugs and alcohol had on an OA. PERIOD. The lying etc, that all came through discussion. I'm sure some PAP do lie on their papers. I said that, so I don't need to ask for verification of something I already know. I'm sure that does harm the OA in those cases (which I would actually like to hear about) No, I won't lie on my paperwork, but not knowing that you'll get the same in return is scarey. It does make you wary of others. Does that make me say bad things and look down on PBM, no. Don't look for insults where there aren't any. All I have are questions. To be honest with you, it's a struggle for me to say what we will and will not "accept" in a PBM. How do I decide that, when I have such an amazing amount of respect for what they are choosing? It *IS* a struggle for me to figure out how I can have such overwhelming respect for a woman who chooses an adoption plan, but at the same time recognize and achnowledges that she used drugs during her pregnancy...it's hard to balance those emotions in my mind. As far as a social worker or family nor believing you....I'm big on finding the right one, like I said. I would tell you (or any PBM) the same thing. If I felt a PBM was lying I wouldn't be all about telling her I thought she was lying. Maybe she is lying, maybe she isn't. More importantly, that isn't the right match. You could feel the same about a social worker. I'm saying what *I* felt about the situation our social worker told us. Clearly she did believe what the girl said. I didn't. That's ok. I'm sure there is a family that would, and they would be a better match. Maybe it sounds judgemental, but personally I think looking for a match that clicks is important. I'm not going to make a match with someone that could very well be telling the truth if I don't feel that in my heart. Maybe my heart will make the right call, and maybe it won't. I'm not going to make a match based on not wanting to hurt a PBM feelings anymore than a PBM should choose us not to hurt our feelings. If something in her gut tells her we are wrong, that's no different than something in my gut telling me she's wrong. How can I "over prepare" for an adoption? Do I learn to much abour OA at some point? Do I gain too much knowledge about a situation I know nothing about, but want with all my heart to work? I guess that's what I'm doing. I guess I'm over preparing for the biggest moment, choice, and decision of my life. If there is anyone that adopted without a fear in their mind, they were UNDER preparing. ****You know in an agency guideline for a profile that came in an agency packet (an agency we aren't using) in their profile letter...it says, do not use the word grateful in your closing thank you. Try as I might, I couldn't figure that one out in my head. I know that adoption is a two way street, and many PBM also are thankful or grateful toward adoptive parents, but from here, from my seat, all I can see is how grateful I am for the choice PBM made. It's hard to thank someone without using the term grateful. Anyone have an idea why we shouldn't use that term? Is it bad to be grateful for even an opportunity to present yourself to a PBM?****

Sometimes, I wonder if we should make a distinction between what I see as two completely different "groups" of birth mothers. There are those of us who relinquished our babies, desiring to give them better lives. Most often, these mothers make their adoption plans while they are pregnant. And then there are those mothers who have had their children forcibly removed by Child Protective Services (CPS). In the latter group, I'm sure that the propensity toward drug addiction would be much greater. These are often the children who are placed in "Foster to Adopt" homes. And these are the abused and/or neglected kids who seem to have so many, many problems, including fetal drug exposure and reactive attachment disorder (RAD). I guess you could decrease your chances of having a PBM lie to you about drug abuse and/or addiction by focusing on the first group of birth mothers. In other words, deal only with expectant mothers, not mothers who have had their parental rights terminated by the state. Just an idea, for what it's worth....

and we are going with a Domestic Private adoption....BUT we started as a Foster Adopt Family, and we did get pretty far into the training before we switched. I am sure that a lot that I heard there still impacts my thought process today... although there certainly is no way to make the two groups completely different. There are cases I've read where birth mothers are making an adoption plan, and they state in it (as if it's a plus) that she has had multiple children removed, or children that are living with relatives for whatever reason, some state drugs, some state neglect. These are mothers in both groups. I can recognize that even if a mother cares for her child, and wishes to make an adoption plan, it doesn't mean that she is drug free. I also read situations where the mother is in jail on drug possession. I think I do need to clarify though that I am reading situations on-line. Typically a situation doesn't make to become a posting on-line when it's an ideal situation. I know from what I've read, and researched them my concerns ARE legitimate. Just because I know they are legitimate, and choose to research that possibility does not also mean that I assume these are the norm, or even frequent. Just because they aren't the norm, or frequent, and don't happen in the majority of adoptions, doesn't mean that given my adoption critera, these situations are more likely to happen. I wanted percentages and they just aren't available, but I did find a few numbers. There are over 350,000 infants born postive for illegal drugs each year. We all know that alcohol is more damaging in most cases than illegal drugs in the long run. We all know that just because a mother uses illegal drugs during pregnancy doesn't mean that the infant will test postive. So we, and everyone else can only guess at numbers. Are all these infants in private adoption, no...some are taken by the state. BUT since I was educated on both sides, I can let you know a few things. 1) when a mother and infant test postive for illegal drugs she still has the on the moment option to make an adoption plan. 2) When I was going through training, they said the MAJORITY (no numbers, just majority) of mothers that test postive at birth would ellect to make and adoption plan, and only about 25% or fewer of those that chose to make an adoption plan would do it with state assistance. That is my state only, and that's all they told me. These case are only when the mother, or infant, or both test positive for illegal drugs. They went on to explain that mothers who had lost multiple children in the past for any reason to the state were also given the option to make their own adoption plan, with out state involvement, even after the state let them know the child would be taken, they could still choose to make an adoption plan on their own. It just remains to be stated that the two groups are not always seperate. I just wanted to point out that not everyone that makes an adoption plan does so lovingly and in advance. That I wrestle with. It's exactly what you said. Do I focus only on adopting an infant whose mother made her adoption plan lovingly and in advance since open adoption is important to me? Or do I also open my heart to a child whose mother might not have made an adoption plan for all the exact right reasons, but still made it and wants an open adoption. Open Adooption is important to me, so should I not "accept" mothers who try to place after birth, etc? I don't know, we're still talking about that. The kicker is that most agencies will not let AA mother make an adoption plan "too far" in advance since studies have show AA Emom's are more likely to end in a disrupted adoption. Either they parent, or a family member parents. So a lot of AA infants are placed last minute, or even after birth. Do I question if that mom really wants an open adoption? Maybe she wasn't allowed to make an adoption plan in advance since she was AA. The only thing that is upsetting me here is that people are suggesting I put down that I want semi-open. Personally I think saying to all birth mothers that read our profile that we want a "Semi-Open" Adoption is a lie! That isn't want we want! We would only want that if we were to match with someone that was an addict. Maybe we just shouldn't accept an addict...I guess that is actually that solves the problem, not limiting ourselves to semi-open, but limiting our exposure to addicts. I guess it could be stated that even if a PBM lied about drug use, as long as the infant wasn't positive at birth, chances are she's not an addict...and she does demonstrate that she knows her use is wrong at least (since she tries to hide it) It's not right to lie about it, but I do understand the fear of rejection, and being judged. In the end, I'm not God and I'm not all seeing....I can only make my best effort toward an open adoption, and hope that the PBM is making her best effort too, I guess.

Amy, that's what I kind of wondered. I read and re-read this thread several times, and then it dawned on me that your fears of being lied to, as well as the adoption horror stories you referred to hearing, might be coming from dealing with the foster-care system. I think you'll have an easier time going through private adoption than the foster-care system. :) I've been a member of two sides of foster care, as a teenage foster kid and as a Court Apponted Special Advocate (CASA) volunteer for over 10 years. The foster-care system can really leave a person questioning everything, including their sanity! :p:

Amy, the reality is is that I think it is a mistake to say you want this or that in the abstract....I am sure you will find that MOST infant adoption situations in this country do NOT involve drugs or alcohol. Does your agency "require" you to put your OA desires in a letter, etc.? I mean you can always "say" you want an open adoption but what does that really "mean" without meeting expecting parents and sort of "hammering" it out? I personally think the most honest "answer" is saying that you are "open" to having an open adoption. If expecting moms "pass' on you because of that, then so be it....there will be others that probably appreciate that.

Aclee- you are right in your thinking about what you will lay out in open adoption. Do what you KNOW you want to do. If the bmom is on drugs...say you want to start with semi-open. Otherwise, you want open adoption. That is okay to say!!! Most of the times when drugs are involved they do things case by case anyways. It is completely understandable and most aparent I know feel the same way...personally I would NOT commit to visits if drugs are involved (like currently). And the fears of being lied to about drugs is a reality in some cases in domestic adoption as well. Most of the bmoms (or even all) on this site aren't part of that "group" of bmoms per say. I do know that it is a reality that our agency prepared us for because it DOES happen...not all of the time mind you...but it does happen. Check out the GAPS board (general adoptive parent support), you might be able to talk to aparents who have gone through this. Not all, or even most situations are involved with drugs....the reason some people might think this way is they get presented with more situations that have drugs involved, this is simply because not as many aparents are open to drugs so your chances of being presented are higher. Does that make any sense? Anyways, your fears are normal, and many many aparents have gone through those same fears. I know after our agency went on and on about the "legal risk" and "drugs risk" part of thier orientation we were FREAKED OUT. They do this to prepare you in the small chance it could happen...but I assure you it is not the norm. (((((hugs)))))

Thanks so much for writing this. I think you are right. Clearly the BM on this site are not the type that would lie about things on their fact sheets, and they mostly know other BM on this site, or another site that also has dedicated BM. I think it's hard to find information about the types of BM that we here about through our agency, because these aren't the types of BM that are here on-line. I guess when they decribe worse case senerio, that's what I'll prepare myself for. I'd rather be surprised and happy than blindsided by something I didn't look into. Thanks again. Hearing that the agencies can blow this out of proportion is a good thing to know. I do understand that open ourselves to drug exposure on a case by case basis means we'll see more of these cases in general, so my views are thrown off a little there too. Take Care!

aclee, I actually know plenty of first moms, not just on this site, many in real life. I know very few that would have even dreamed of lying on their fact sheets. Most women that place voluntarily love their child so much it hurts, and they wouldn't have hurt them inutero. Please don't compare women that have their children removed to those of us that place voluntarily, we are two different sets of people. Also, assuming that we don't know people that don't post on this board is kind of presumtuous don't you think? Alot of us go to support groups that are real life. For the record I do know a woman that used drugs during her pregnancy and was honest about it in her questionairre. My son's parents know that I have been in recovery since I was 18, I was honest about it. We aren't pathological liars.

belle - I don't think she was comparing any of you nor was she saying that you don't know any other bmoms. She is talking about something that is rare, but still happens and in voluntary placements also. She probably should not have posted this question in the bparent forums....but still. By suggesting that some bparents lie about drugs is just like suggesting that aparents lie about what they want in an open adoption, which is what many many eparents have asked about while preparing themselves. It's preparing for worst case....she's not saying ALL do this, she just doesn't know. Which is why she was asking. You have to realize how much some agencies harp on this, not because ALL bparents lie, but because it MAY happen, so you aren't blind sided. So a lot of paparents are worried this is the norm!! She is not calling ALL bparents pathological liars (as a matter of fact she just asked about ONE THING that bparent might lie about...). Be gentle, she is new and just doesn't know!

She says that clearly we are the types that wouldn't lie and probably mostly only know other first moms on this site and another one dedicated to first moms. I did read the whole thread and didn't say anything until that last post. To me there is a feeling of repeated questioning on the honestly of first parents and then anger when it is pointed out that there are some adoptive parents that embelish as well. The concern about drug abuse is repeatedly brought up, so it feels as though she assumes that ALL of us are drug users, not that that is an uncommon belief about first parents. You're right, there are worst case scenarios, with both first and adoptive parents. Ask some of the first parents here how they have been treated by people that promised them the world. Ten years I have been active in the adoption community, I've seen alot of hurt and anger from both adoptive and first parents about being lied to. I guess in the end, expectant parents have to place TONS of trust in a few pieces of paper about the people that may adopt their children. Maybe it would behoove potential adoptive parents to do the same with expectant parents? Starting an open adoption with an atmosphere of distrust is dooming it to failure.

I am sorry alcee. I am honestly not trying to find holes in your arguments or pick apart what youre saying. I'm not TRYING to be offended. I actually commended you on your determination and dedication to research and find what works best for you. If it came across as me being sarcastic, I'm not at all! I'm very serious. I think it's great that you're being so thorough. I'm afraid you've been misunderstanding me. I have actually been trying to alleviate some of your fears. I think statistics can be skewed and used however people want to use them. I worry that like Vogi said, agencies may overstate about the liars and the druggies etc. I was really just trying to let you know that there are awesome bparents out there that love thier kids a lot and that it IS possible for you to match with one and to have the open adoption it seemed you were hoping for.

I did put a LOT of trust in my child's bparents and I regret that trust, though it has nothing to do with drugs. Aparents also put a lot of trust in bparents, please don't downplay that. I'm not saying to go into an adoption (especially open) with an air of distrust. But it's not so rare to get lied to, aparent or bparent, and it IS a fear you have starting out. Thanksgiving - (((hugs))) You ARE awesome! :) There are a LOT of awesome bparents on this board, and it's sad that there those few negative bparents that make it harder for the bparents such as yourself. (I feel the same with aparents not going through with what they present to bparents).

Deleted my post. I only want to go round and round about what my fears are, and have people take offense to a fear I have in my heart so many times. If my fear upset you, I'm sorry...it was built on information I've read, and heard from many sources. If they were all wrong and incorrect I'm sorry, but there it is, in my heart. I tried to talk about it in the best way I could, and I don't seem to be making myself clear. Just want to thank everyone that commented! Anyone that I upset, or somehow insulted, I am very sorry, it was NOT my intention. I would still love to hear from any birthmom's whose adoptions might not have started on the best foot, but have moved forward and been great. In the end, I guess I just hope I'm able to have the Open Adoption I've been praying for every night. I hope I'm not disappointed, and that every fear in my heart will be pointless...Adoption is a fearful process for all involved.