Poland vs. Ukraine? Agency/Facilitator Experience?

Wow! Thank you both for such detailed information. You have confirmed some of our leanings towards Poland (hence the reason why I posted this in the Poland forum :D). Hylo, I'll PM you about the blog info - thanks for the offer. And, I'd love to know about your agency. :) If anyone has any feedback about agencies use for Poland adoption, please PM me. Also, if we requested a sibling group (girl/girl preferably), would that slow down the process in Poland (versus saying girl only OR sibling group or girl only) or speed it up? Another question: If I wanted to stay in Poland the entire time (versus going home), how long on average would that be? A month or two? I totally agree with you, Hylo. We'd definitely rather have a well-adjusted healthy child and wait longer if needed. Again, thanks so much. Both of your feedback means more than you know!

Hi, I am currently waiting for a match from Poland. I have been told there is not much difference between the wait for one child or two siblings. Three siblings is where the wait time is usually less.Specifying gender will likely make the wait time longer, especially if you specify a girl or two girls. Your age range is good (esp up to age 8), and the Polish heritage helps. We decided on Poland for some of the same reasons. My husband is half Polish, and we have heard good things about their orphanages and foster care system. We originally were going to adopt from China so the wait time for Poland doesn't seem too bad compared to that. We are hoping to get a match sometime in 2010.I have a friend who adopted a healthy baby boy from Russia, and got a referral only about a month after sending their dossier. I guess a rule of thumb is to go with the program that feels best for you. There are certainly no guarantees on how long it will take. I'm learning patience is the most important part of this whole process.Good luck!

Woah – after reading some of that Ukraine stuff, I’m even more grateful to Poland. After our referral we sent many questions to be answered, got a few answered, and then asked for and were given a few days to make our decision. This look at pictures-go to the orphanage-pull the heart strings- put on the pressure thing would have killed us! I didn’t get to pick out my biological children, and I didn’t get to pick out my adoptive children. However, the Lord made fantastic and perfect matches in ALL of them. We asked for a sibling group, two boys or two girls (same sex because we wanted them sharing a room) between 3 and 8 years old. It was almost 2 years before we traveled to bring home twin boys that would turn 8 shortly after our arrival home. We stayed in Poland for the entire time, were there almost two months, and highly recommend the moving of heaven and earth to stay in country with children during the process.Welcome!

Thanks for the feedback, lastpaige. Would you mind PM'ing me with the name of the agency you use and how your experience was? I'm having trouble getting many references from agencies. We have strongly been considering staying in-country the whole time like you did. If you had an apartment you really liked, I would love to know which it was. We're really starting to lean toward Poland now.

One of the most important factors in our decision to choose Poland was because of their reputation of taking such great care of kids in institutions. We adopted one child (age 9) last winter and fully can attest to how well kids are cared for and the love they receive in orphanages. We stayed in country for the whole trip and were there for close weeks. Our facilitator helped arrange an apartment during our first two weeks of bonding and we found an apartment on our own for the last 6 weeks in Warsaw. Depending on where you are staying, your facilitator may be able to help out, otherwise I am happy to send you a link to where we stayed when you get ready for all those details! :)~sarah

We were in your exact shoes three years ago and I choose Ukraine. We didn't yet have the warning from the US government out and we were working with a credible agency. We also felt drawn to the ability to have some say in the child you were matched with vs. having someone else decide. The experience in country itself - was - well ------ horrible. One of the most trying experiences of our lives (and we have been through cancer several times.) Our appointment with the SDA turned out to be three weeks after they had made a decision to adopt no healthy or slightly healthy children under the age of 8 to the US, it just wasn't official yet. We were asked for more money, we were told to wait, etc. Our money was kept - and we went home. The warning by the US government for Ukraine is very accurate as to the state of the mind of the government right now. That doesn't mean there aren't lots of kids in the orphanage, it just means they aren't being made available for foreign adoption. Poland --- We have been home four months with our daughter and picked her up from the orphanage six months ago. Yes there were bumps in the road, but the overall process felt more --above board. The orphanage she was at was very nice. Our daughter had physical/occupational therapy almost every day she was there by a very qualified individual that we can never thank enough for how well he took care of her. Every doctor we have seen has been impressed with the care she received. The director cared about her kids and she worked hard to find them homes. Our daughters medical conditions were disclosed and were pretty accurate --they've held up with quite a battery of testing. Based on my experience, you can imagine why I would recommend Poland. Knowing that your husband is of Polish descent it seems to make even more sense. As far as Russian being easier than Polish --- they are both pretty difficult so don't let that have any impact (I learned both basic Russian, Ukranian, and Polish during this process.) I only now appreciate the comment about the Polish program from our agency when I first started researching. She said, "Poland is a slow, but steady program that offers no new surpises, just a steady stream (though slow) of referrals." Good luck with your decision. If we didn't get the run around in Ukraine we would have never met our daughter so things happen for a reason --So technically you can't make a "wrong decision" which is how I felt for quite awhile. Feel free to PM any questions.

Well, you probably have many answers by now. And I know others will get defensive and disagree with me, but my advice, if you want a healthy child from Poland or Ukraine, forget about it. My experience has been that the agencies, facilitators, and people along the way in and out of country lie, lie, lie. They string you along until you are thousands of dollars and many years into the process, and try to wear you down until you take the special needs child, or the sibling groups, or the teen-ager--whatever it is you really didn't want. I am sitting in Kiev right now, writing to you, re-living all the lies I have heard along the way. I just had a long enlightening conversation with an insightful Ukrainian today. You are a "rich" American, these kids have a horrible future in store for them if you or someone does not help them. So the adoption people, the people you pay by the way, fudge on info and they skimp on the truth. They are thinking what you and your family will suffer through with a special needs kid is nothing compared to what these kids will go through if they stay in the orphanage. In the adoption process in both Poland and Ukraine I have found that almost no one is your advocate, no one is really on your side. They are all like a bunch of used car salesmen trying to sell you something you didn't want. And in that same mode, they go for the "emotional" sale, even when you know and they know you can't "afford" the car. They all frown and shake their heads when you mention seeking expert medical advice, or they just give you misinformation over and over again. ...It is sickening they can be so deceptive when you are trying to make perhaps the most important decision of your life. This is one reason we keep hearing of adoption "disruption" or these horror stories like the kid sent back to Russia. The parents were led to believe a different story than the truth. if you know right now that you are not the kind of person who in anyway shape or form can take on a child with these special issues, my advice, don't go down this slippery slope. Consider donar egg, surrogate, more time with extended family, volunteer work...whatever it takes to give you that extra connection you desire.

Dear lulu6,I am really sorry to hear you're going through such a bad experience with your adoption process in Kiev. I don't know a whole lot about Ukranian adoptions, so I'm not sure how to comment on that, but I do know quite a bit about Polish adoptions.I've adopted myself, and I have many friends who adopted in Poland. I also follow blogs written by other adoptive parents that adopted from Poland. Everyone has a different experience, of course. And the experience does change from one agency to another.What I do take exception to is the statement that the Polish adoption agencies and facilitators lie, fudge info, skimp on truth, or give you misinformation. If anything, the majority of the experiences I've heard of actually exaggarate the medical condition and the reports were VERY accurate! We were all given plenty of information and all of it was true information.All of us who adopted in Poland were given a medical report and photos. We were all given a chance to consult a doctor and to ask additional questions before making a decision on adopting. We were given four different opportunities to say "no" to the adoption referral: The first phone call, the responses on our questions, the first meeting with the children and the final court date. We were never pressured beyond what we were already told ahead of time will occur.As for adoption disruption, in the case that was much publicized it was an adoption from Russia and not Poland. The process in Russia is extremely different and it's not wise to compare the two countries.While I agree that some adoption disruption occurs when the parents were led to believe a different story from the truth, I disagree that this is the case with Polish Adoptions. Especially because you do get the full story and you do get a chance to say "no" after bonding with the child for two weeks.I can't speak with experience about adoption disruption, but I can say for certainety that not all children are a perfect match with their adoptive parents. It happens. Sometimes the adoptive parents are simply not well prepared to handle adopted children. Sometimes they don't have a good strong support group to turn to after adopting. Sometimes the process of adoption itself makes a child change in personality to a point that makes it difficult to parent.But to keep it perspective - there are plenty of parents of biological children who have their daily struggles with difficult or spirited children.To sum it up, I just wanted to clear it up for those reading this thread and interested in POLISH adoptions - there is no comparison with Ukranian adoptions. A bad experience with an adoption from Russia or Ukraine means nothing about a potential bad experience with an adoption from Poland. The entire process is different. Again, I'm really sorry you're having such a bad experience with your adoption from Kiev, and I hope things will eventually turn out all for the best.

While alot of folks on this forum have succesfully adopted from Poland, it is simply niave to believe that there are no issues with disruption and misinformation through the Polish adoption process. Prospective parents need to throroughly research agencies through Hague, state licensing agencies and multiple online groups no matter what country you are cosindering. If you receive a referral you need to be diligent looking for discrepencies and seek clarification. I would strongly recommend the use of an International Adoption doctor to assist you with this. My advise, become informed!

A couple of things. One thing is that there are not a lot of very young children available for adoption in most countries. In Poland the Polish people tend to adopt the healthy babies themselves. This is a very good thing. It means these children do not have to deal with the additional trauma of getting used to a whole new culture. However there are many children mostly over three waiting for homes in Poland and many over 8 waiting in Ukraine.Poland is more ethical in general in my opinion, but I only base that on stories I have heard. As for the languages, I found Polish much easier. It at least uses the same alphabet as English, which helped. Also my son learned English amazingly fast. We also used a lot of flashcards with pictures and our own form of charades, LOL. I would suggest learning about attachment disorder. Learn about RAD, AD, PI issues and all that stuff. I have met many very healthy children who have had none of those issues from both countries, however, I have also met many who do have those issues. (including my own son, who is doing well now, but it was difficult at first) The attachment issues are not recognized by the doctors in either country and children who have learned orphanage survival skills will be charming and may not show any signs until you have them home. Because in adoption you are dealing with human beings and human beings are fallible, there is always a chance someone will lie to you or withhold information. Especially in an industry where as much money is exchanged as in the adoption industry, there is a temptation for people to pull stuff. So you do have to beware. Ask lots of questions. Ask to speak to families who have recently returned from the country. Be suspicious if the agency does not answer your questions directly. As others have said, adoption is forever, disruption is very difficult and painful and should be a last resort. Prepare as though your child will have some attachment issues. Be prepared to parent in a way that fosters attachment and locate a counselor near you. If you don't need the counselor, then that is fine. The attachment parenting will be good for forming a bond even if they child is healthy and has no issues. Good luck in your journey. It may be difficult, but so worth it in my experience.

I am interested in finding out more about poland adoptions myself. What is your experience?

Could you suggest some resources about attachment parenting?

There are tons of books on attachment out there. "Adopting the hurt child", "When a stranger calls you mom". "Attachment in adoption", "building the bonds of attachment". Your agency should offer some training and some reccomended reading. If they do not, then I would not use them. If they are not preparing you for the possibility of attachment issues before hand, then likely they will not be there to help you if you have them when you get home. I am having trouble remembering what I read in advance, because my first adoption was more than ten years ago and lately since we are immerssed in the world of full blown RAD, I have been doing heavier reading.

Hello I wanted to open an international adoption agency, but just found out that gov. is actually closing adoptions instead of helping to open more :(...I have noticed that some of you have questions regarding adoption from Poland. I am not familiar with exact adoption rules, but I come from Poland, and if anyone would need help with some translations or researching some information I would be more than happy to help...my email is anulka2520@hotmail.com :wings:

My experience is just one, but I've been through the process with both countries. Ukraine - horrible, lying, taking your money, controlled by the mob, asking for more under the table to get a "healthier" child all the while you know you are being played. That said, we loved spending time in the country and meeting many people not connected to the adoption process. While we were in country 4 months we decided to take advantage and not let it get us too down. Now onto Poland. No lying, some miscommunication, expectation that all americans are rich. As far as pressure... We had one referral that we requested additional info on and didn't receive any, we went ahead and said yes and traveled. The agency rep was with us the entire time and realized pretty quickly into this that there was an issue between the Polish agency and the foster mom and the info the foster mom was trying to provide wasn't being given to us. Therefore, the medical issues were way over our comfort level and we said no after seeing the child. It was heartbreaking, but we received no pressure to say yes. They agreed that the information was very different and they understood why we were saying no. They reassured us that it would hurt our chances for another referral. We did get that second referral. I wouldn't consider her to be "healthy", no child w/ PTSD is. But they were upfront with us about the issues prior to going to Poland and completely open when we were there. I have every piece of medical information that was ever generated including every prescription she was ever given. I have her actual medical records from when she was born, every social worker visit write-up, etc, etc. Yes, there were some things they didn't know that we have found out through MRI's, etc. But we expected them based on the info they provided. We still keep in touch with the orphanage director and the physical therapist that worked with our daughter. We credit them for giving her a chance at life. The orphnage couldn't "fix" deep neglect, but they gave our daughter a start at healing. We continue to donate vitamins and vaseline (at their request) each year and plan to go back and visit more than once I imagine. They cared about their kids and wanted what was best for them. The agency was by no means perfect and we had some disagreements along the way, but I think that this is an emotional process and therefore it can be difficult for both sides. I would recommend our agency and the process with Poland because it worked well. It really isn't fair to even compare Poland to Ukraine. No comparison...... Now, does that mean there won't be disruptions, some bad experiences, information that may not have been given, someone not quite prepared for what the behaviors they see, etc. No - These are all hurt kids. They are in an orphanage for a reason.