Apalling law in Alabama

This is why I tend to prefer a system of federal sales tax vs. federal income taxes...at least then you get money from undocumented workers, people that make their money in illegal ways (i.e. drug traffickers), etc, plus you don't have to deal with the complicated income tax structure. Think of all the money that would be saved if we didn't have to pay IRS employees to check tax returns, perform audits, etc. Of course, I'm not educated enough on the topic to really know if it's better to have federal sales tax instead of federal income tax. Ok I'll stop digressing now. I will say that in theory, these laws didn't really bother me as long as everyone is required to carry proof of citizenship, but the responses in this thread have made me rethink my position on the issue and I'm pretty sure now that I'm not a fan of these laws.

Yep, great points. We had plenty of undocumented workers in New York, primarily Irish. A few Undoc. from the other border due North..Canadians. It's all about who is easily identifiable.

Hadley, you might wanna rethink that "savvy Southerners" comment...

Bama, that was definitely not meant as a slur against all Southerners. But I stand by the comment that there is widespread consciousness of the fact that the system of cheap labor and goods only works as long as we keep the borders legally closed to workers. To do that, you have to stir up and exploit populist racism just enough to make immigration and migrant work illegal but not enough to actually stop it. This was all explained to me several times by what I call "savvy Southerners" when I lived in Louisiana and Texas a couple of decades ago. The only problem now from their POV is that the populist racist dogs they thought they were using have slipped their leashes and are starting to actually drive economy-boosting immigrants and native-born citizens who look a certain way out of states like Alabama and Arizona. If the people behind these laws continue to succeed, they will pay dearly for it, I am convinced of that. Maybe, in a circuitous way, that would be a good thing. Maybe if we got to a point where, on one end of the economy, crops rotted in the fields and, on the other, universities lost many of the best and brightest candidates, we might get to a point where the United States actually creates guest programs to attract foreign workers and students at all levels. That we would be going hat in hand to other countries and asking for their people. It has certainly happened at various times in Europe, so iit might be possible. That would be an interesting and amusing turning of the tables.

The Washington Post had a great article about the law this weekend. One thing it said is that something like 60% of the crops in Alabama are now going to rot in the fields. Way to help out the economy Alabaman lawmakers!

bananamom: how do you know the southeast Asians are here legally? Because they say so? Have you seen their papers proving it?

I know because I lived there for many years, and have a Southeast Asian son. His first mom and her family were legal immigrants. They, along with many others from Vietnam and Laos were settled in that area, and others, after the end of the Vietnam war by the U.S. government. These were people on OUR side during the Vietnam war who were then endangered when we pulled out. I have not seen their "papers", nor do I need to. Some of them might be illegal, the majority not. The financial assistance given to them angers many people in the area to this day, especially those in the fishing industry. They resent what they perceive as unfair advantage given to them by the U.S. government, NOT their right to be here. My point was, the law is a disturbing response to a legitimate concern many states have over illegal immigration, it should not be turned into condemnation of Alabamians or Southerners for being racist yet again. There is racism and hatefulness towards various groups everywhere, no place is immune. The RESULT of this law is certain to be trouble for ALL Hispanics, likely ALL brown skinned people in Alabama, the majority of whom ARE legal. The people supporting the law in Alabama don't seem to understand that point. THAT is what has to change. I keep hearing so many people, including well-educated people, saying the law is fine because it solves the problem of the state seeming to be a haven for illegal immigrants as the numbers of them have grown very rapidly in recent years. And the common belief is that these illegals, mostly Mexicans, are a financial burden to our state, which everybody knows is one of the poorest in the country. The law makes it harder for illegals, they'll leave, and those of us here legally will be better off. Doesn't solve Alabama's problems, but solves ONE of Alabama's problems. If you're Mexican and here legally, you won't have a problem. That's the argument. But the IMPLEMENTATION of the law will certainly involve racial profiling and a myriad of problems for darker skinned people. So the OP is reasonably concerned about adopting a teen Hispanic girl who would cross the state line and possibly encounter trouble because she is Hispanic. THERE is the problem. Brown people of whatever ethnicity and immigration status deciding to move away in large numbers because they no longer feel safe. Then ALL of Alabama will suffer, as that will be far more damaging to the economy than the money currently spent providing services to illegal residents. On top of that, many people across the nation, including corporations, will now judge Alabama even more negatively and not want to waste their time or money investing here. The law has no redeeming value, it needs to go. BTW, the minute one of my brown kids-Hispanic or southeast Asian- gets pulled over by police or has to get through a roadblock, I will definitely post what happens!!

There have been news articles about LEGAL Hispanics being detained so being legal won't help much. And, how will those one million undocumented Europeans be found? I doubt that anyone is stopping Europeans because they seem 'suspicious'.

You have a great point. You know what is so ironic is that I actually knew of a European that was in the US illegally. I knew her by way of a friend, so she wasn't a friend of mine... I simply knew her. In any event, she wanted to stay in the US and not go back to France (crazy, huh?) When her visa ran out, I was surprised she was still in the country and I remember remarking to my friend... "I need to call Lou Dobbs, I'll bet he isn't looking for people who look like her..." I'll bet money she's still in the US...

Considering all the hoops that have to be jumped through to complete any kind of immigration process, it's a wonder anyone even tries to get in legally. I carry my 3 year old's 'work permit' in my wallet just to remind me how screwed up the system is. Had to get it in order to get a social security number. Only took a bit more then two years and more money then I care to remember.

I live in Texas, my town has maybe 50% Hispanic. I know a lot of these people, their kids and my kids are friends. Some are here legally and some are not. Here is the thing, they are just like any other group of people. Some are very, very hard workers. (most here, like the lady that cleans my next door neighbors house for 10.00 a hour work under the table for cash) Some are not, this lady will go on very angrily if you get her started on the one's who are not willing to work. She tells me about some who come and who get the false papers so they can get on welfare. They do get free education for their children, which this lady says is why she came here. The kids also get free lunch and free breakfast. In our town we even have that in the summer. We also have a church that gives clothes and school supplies to all the kids who come and ask for it and it includes this group of people who are undocumented but don't want to work. There are huge divisions in the Hispanic community here between, those who work and those who don't. There is a smaller divide (not quite as emotional) between documented and undocumented. Some who are legally here are angry at those who are not, because they jumped through the hoops and feel others can too. Stuck in the middle are the children. This lady I know has four children. Three were born here (she did not have to pay, they get all medical care by going to the ER) Her oldest was born in Mexico and was a baby when they got here. She graduated from high school near the top of her class but in order to go to college she has had to start jumping through hoops to become a citizen, but she is doing it. If her mother gets caught and sent back, they have to figure out what to do with the younger kids who are citizens. They could stay here if someone will take them and if the mom is willing to be away from them. This lady lives in fear of that. However she is not willing to try to get paperwork. Anyway, my point was undocumented immigrants are like any other group, some are hard working and some are lazy and most are somewhere in the middle.

This discussion has reminded me that I am not certain that my third child could prove his citizenship. He was born in Germany, on a US Air Force Base, where we were also stationed. He is a US citizen, because he was born on a US base. However, his original birth certificate was lost, when he was in state custody because of getting in trouble as a teen (long story, he broke curfew, got into fights, etc., but always got much worse treatment than the white friends who were with him). The last time he was in a proctor home, we didn't get his birth certificate back. We still have the American one that was issued at the time he was born, but it has his birth mother's last name on it. He is black/white and looks more black than most biracial kids, but he has straight hair, so most people here don't recognize him as such and wonder if he is Hispanic. He is now 22 and travels with work, some times. I guess we should make sure that he has what he needs to identify his citizenship, in case he goes to a state where cops pick out non-white people to accuse as being illegals.I can sort of see both sides. I have lived in Germany and traveled extensively in Europe, including East Germany in the late 80s, when proof of citizenship was extremely important. But I think if states want to require proof of citizenship of some people, they should require it of everyone.

It IS supposed to be required of everyone. Whenever a person applies for any kind of government aid or contract, driver license, food stamps, medicaid, college, there will need to be proof of being in the U.S. legally. The driver licenses and state issued ID's will begin to indicate proof of being legal as they get updated, so they will be good enough in time. There are many different documents acceptable for showing legal status, but as previous posters have said, some legal people do fall through the cracks. They are holding off on enforcing most of the law right now. Police must be trained, and parts are being challenged. The clause requiring schools to ask for students legal status in order to get a head count only was blocked a few days ago. I worry about the likelihood of harrassment of brown people, and I worry about families being split up. I'm not sure what the process is for someone who has been here illegally many years, being a hard working taxpayer and having a U.S. citizen child, but a friend is in that situation. So far, he says he is not worried, he has spoken to a lawyer and should be able to gain legal status. So he is not leaving. The governor of Alabama has released a plan for getting job seekers in the jobs being vacated by those who are leaving, but everyone is wondering how that will work. I read where local tomato farms were paying $2 per basket of tomatos picked (fairly big basket) and having alot of trouble getting anybody willing to work more than a couple of days to do it. We'll see......

Hello, Everyone! Newbie,here.. and looking forward to learn new things .. I can said that our family is very lucky and blessed, we are USA Citizens from Puerto Rico ( P.R. is a USA Commonwealth and USA Territory) we are born with a SSN # and we participate in the military ( DH is a Major with the Army Reserves for almost 17 years now.. IMHP is a bit sad about this new law, because as you can see not all the hispanic population in the USA is Illegal..Just my humble opinion.. We had lived in a few other states and now we are settled down in the west and thank God, we are not going anywhere..:dance: We have DD9 she was conceived throught IVF and I have to had a Hysterectomy in 2005, for this reason we are looking to adopt thru our county ( foster to adopt) . We already have all paperwork submmited and we took CPR and First aid classes as well. I am looking forward to learn from all of you and I have been reading lots of books, regarding adoption.. I am also a former Bilingual and Head Start teacher ... thank you for reading and I can't wait to hear from any of you soon.. Army Wife..P.R.

Welcome Latinamama! Happy you are here! I hope you will be successful quickly in growing your family, there are many Hispanic kids in foster care needing adoptive homes. I'm not sure about the number of Hispanic people in Alabama, but the figure I keep hearing regarding the number of illegal, mostly Mexican, Hispanics is around 140,000. There has been a HUGE increase in just the last ten years, with entire communities completely transformed in a very short time.