RAD, cognitive/IQ, or something else?

Sounds like she has a few things going on... She probably DOES have brain damage from early neglect abuse/ alcohol exposure?? So I would say the connecting things in odd ways could be related to that. But the lying about the obvious (crazy lying) such as the eyebrows sounds more like attachment. I really can't believe she would be discharged from attachment therapy. Is this a therapist that specialized in adopted kids? Because that doens't sound right. I personally would look for another therapist. Learning issues are common in kids like this. My 8 1/2 yr old is still in kindergarten math.. things just take her forever!! I homeschool, and will ask her a question about her math, while she's still thinking, her 5yo (bio) brother shouts out the answer. It's hard to deal with. Sad as it is, your husband may be right.. she might need to learn just enough to get by in life, and either live in a group home setting or marry a (hopefully ) responsible person that will take care of her!

cont... Sorry about all of those typos--sent from my phone. :o Dx: Forgot to mention FASD or FAE (suspected from beginning, confirmed 2011). Meds: 2005: Clonadine (hiding under desk at school/depression/anxiety) Imipramine (bedwetting, didn't work.) 2005: Psych took her off those, tried ADHD meds, settled on Concerta, 54 mg. (still had anxiety/RAD behaviors at school--stealing from peers and teacher's desk, hurting smaller children at recess/impulsive behaviors, but less distracted during school & homework). 2006-2011: "treated" with afterschool tutoring (Lindamood Bell method--brain rewiring exercises plus math/reading work), then Interactive Metronome and Fish oil (as well as Concerta, now down to 18 mg, and Mirtazapin 15 mg to help her sleep at night), trying to improve ADHD symptoms as well as brain integration/learning issues. 2006: 1 week RAD intensive out of town, followup with supposed theraplay woman (who did play therapy, not theraplay and left me in waiting room!) Floundered for 2 years! 2008-2010: Found local attachment therapist, some progress. (still lying routinely when we "completed" therapy, but therapist said on her way to wellness and lies weren't "intentional" anyway, since most contained a grain of truth...was just struggling to understand reality and so filled in blanks with other people's/movie's/book's stories. Supposedly the more we worked with her, the less she'd do this. (And she doesn't do it as often AROUND US, but always does when meeting new kids or even around kids she has known for years according to sibs. Could be anxiety triggers it. Also seems afraid of conversation lulls.) AT thought her behaviors were more cognitive than RAD to begin with, but that she did have some attachment issues worth working through. 2011: Speech/Language therapy and OT (recommended by Dr. who dx'ed FASD). Just completed OT after 1 year, huge gains, sp/lang will continue. 2012: continuing Fish Oil (from Stordy's book "The LCP Solution"), the 18mg Concerta, and 15 mg Mirtazapine. (I hope to wean her off these if we can get the brain to heal with omega 3s.) And she'll be starting a peer group with Easter Seals/Arc. (I was afraid she wouldn't qualify due to IQ being too "high" or that she'd feel embarrassed, but after meeting and talking with her, they said she'd fit in just fine, and my kiddo was thrilled/clueless.) :o NOTE: The fact that she doesn't understand what purpose ARC serves or what organization is says alot about her comprehension and cognitive level. Younger sib came with us to meeting, and she understood purpose of group and did NOT want to join. (This one isn't neuro typical by any means, but more socially-aware than older sis.) Hopefully this sheds light and someone can tell me what's going on with my child. Is it RAD resurfacing (based on some trigger), is it just a lack of congition/social awareness, or could it be something entirely different we haven't thought of? Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts!

Thanks AmyinWi for the quick reply. Yes, I thought it was too soon, too, but we were therapied out by then and she had made some progress. This was the ONLY therapist I was able to find and she had did have other adoptive families as clients. There's alot I didn't like about her approach (like allowing my child to spin wild, creative tales of abuse by foster parent that couldn't have happened the way she described) because she thought it was healthy for child to get something off her chest even if her story wasn't accurate. But we didn't have much choice (no other ATs in area who'd take insurance). It might be worth checking into post-adoption benefits from their placing state re: AT coverage. But also about the FASD--forgot about that. yes, these symtoms and learning issuse are pretty typical for FASD, but the weird connections and then the eyebrow cutting were what threw me. I wondered if the "giant leaps" might be RAD (gotta confuse you, make you think I can't learn) thing and if the adamant, sticking-to-her-story in the face of evidence might be a cognitive issue. She really seems to BELIEVE her version at times. Like the eyebrows. She may have clipped it with her electric razor this morning and truly "not remember." Or she may simply be denying clipping them with her fingernail clippers which I think is what she did. :arrow:

She sounds a lot like my 15 yr old. His attachment therapist said it's his Asperger's that makes him see the world differently, that his RAD is, for the most part, healed. When I think of my son's future wife, I see your dd. He makes really bad choices and doesn't make the connnections of why they happened, then lies about what his choice was and what happened. Who knows with him, maybe it is brain damage. Maybe his goal in life is just to make me insane (he's getting close to reaching it!). How long has she been part of your family? Do you see any improvements?

7 years next month! And yes, we have seen improvements with the RAD behaviors, which is what makes me wonder if it was just brain damage all along. It's as if she starts to lie because she doesn't know what to say, then gets trapped and has to keep going. (Dh said she should run for office because she's so good at keeping to the story, even in the face of evidence to the contrary!) ;-) Also found out tonight (through a confession brought on by sib's order: "Tell them or I will!": She had also cut eye lashes short with nail clippers a cew nights ago! Apparently she has been doing this for the last few nights (sleepless at night, came up with bright idea to "cut stuff" with nail clippers. (I did notice she wasn't wearing makeup today, but had to look closely to see half of her eyelashes are cut right up to the eyelid.) I also. Ot iced lots of short (1" or so) pieces of hair in tub, so she may have tried to cut bangs or something with clippers. I'll know tomorrow when I braid her hair! These are some ODD behaviors for a 14-yr-old! Not quite RAD-related because she's harming herself and kept it a secret. More like what a toddler might do, right? Which could be a symptom of FASD, impulsivity, lack of cause/effect and consequences (like not being able to put mascara on if eyelashes are gone). ??? P.S. will be putting new batteries in hallway motion sensor and keeping grooming tOols in my room. (She uses elec shaver, not blades, so I'm not taking that away. I guess if she tries buzzing her eyebrows or hair off, she'll have to live with that.)

Honestly, in what you described, I didn't hear you say anything that sounded "attachment" to me at all. A couple of the behaviors "could" be attachment, if you were otherwise noticing lack of attachment but it doesn't sound like you are. When was the last time you have her IQ tested? It sounds lower than 86. An 86 should be able to function with like aged peers but be the "dumb" kid. I would consider having her re-tested for IQ. A lot of what you describe sounds FASD to me. The cause and effect stuff. Inability to separate fantasy/fiction from reality. That's all FASD. FASD would also explain her functioning at a much lower level than her IQ to a certain extent. I'm also not really hearing from your description anything that sounds ADHD. And I am sure the night time leaking (that's what it sounds like as opposed to wetting the bed) is from her meds. I could be totally wrong but the way you describe her does not sound like the way other folks describe their attachment disordered kids. Certainly doesn't sound like a RAD kid.

Lying about obvious (doesn't know how her eyebrows disappeared), being able to "control" the amount she is wetting, but being ABLE to go to the toilet instead of the alarm,and being able to maniupulate/ plan sneaking around the house are ALL signs of attachment disorder. I would venture to guess telling people inappropriate information is as well.. no, most people would be embarrased by information like that, but AD kids like that odd attention. Just my opinion...yes, there are other issues going on, but really sounds like some attachment issues (not nessecarily RAD, but perhaps)

Not really trying to be funny, but... your kid sounds about as weird as mine. Hopefully the psych folks involved will soon start seeing and figuring out just what the heck is going on with him. It's SO frustrating. The rest of my kids put together don't stress me as much as this one does. Right now, he's in an RTC/hospital for kids with chronic illnesses and behavioral issues. He also just turned 14, and I have had him since age 9. I have 3 of his sibs also. His IQ is 73. He was very RAD, the "loves everybody" type, esp. women, very superficial, extreme learned helplessness, the favorite of everybody. Very much coddled by his numerous previous caregivers and by teachers. Rules don't apply to him. There was no known issue of alcohol by his first mom, who was known to "live" in bars, but he's looking really FASD now. When I got him, everyone thought he was so smart, he was a good reader, and could carry on in depth conversations, and just a tremendous sweetheart. But he is also very manipulative, lies like crazy, sneaky, extremely immature, doesn't learn from consequences or doesn't care, and since puberty very sex-focused. With his health issues, if he doesn't make a few changes, he will die soon after becoming an adult if we can't keep him legally dependent and with us or in a group home. His outstanding therapist is really at a loss as to how to deal with him. The RTC is currently just seeing his sweet cuddly, in love with nurses and hospitals side.

How ironic! I Googled "fasd stealing lying" and my own post came up! So since I'm here, thanks to all who responded to my initial question. Sadly, I'm still at a loss. But, definitely, AmyinWi, what you noticed points to attachment issues (probably not "RAD" per se, but she's clearly not attached, yet).AND...BamaMom, her "cluelessness" is probably from the FASD. Mine, too, is seen as "sweet" and "caring." She was recently described as "depressed" and "down on herself" and "really shy" (they must have been talking about somebody else's kid! The whole neighborhood can hear mine screaming when she's outside playing with her sibs in the backyard--screeching with delight like a toddler on a sugar/caffeine high!) But she's been getting bullied a bit (for her "slowness") on this sports team, so that's probably why she seems sweet, and shy/quiet. Normally she'd be in everyone's face, being the class clown.So who knows? My guess is that both are at play here--the attachment isn't secure and the FASD plays a role in everything. But just tonight I discovered my "hidden" stash of M'n'Ms were almost gone (I hide them in the freezer UNDER the gross veggies. Mwah ha ha...and tonight when I opened freezer to make supper, M'n'Ms were lying on top, with only 4 or 5 pieces left of a nearly full 1 lb bag!) Didn't bother asking WHY or WHEN this time. Just had them sitting on table at supper and watched her squirm in her seat. :evilgrin: Then for dessert, I passed out HER marshmallows and chocolate chips for all to share. Surprise! She didn't complain. In fact, was quite happy to "share." (But that could be the FASD part--sweet, charming, unaware--rather than the "No fair!" attachment disorder part.) Can't remember who mentioned ADHD and retesting IQ, but I've wondered that myself. ADHD is comorbid with FASD and they think it's because the part of the brain that deals with impulsivity is part of what gets damaged with fetal alcohol exposure. So it may be that she does NOT really have ADHD, and really, she's only taking 18 mg of Concerta and we give frequent breaks (weekends and when I forget). The only difference is that she's LOUDER without it, though she CAN focus if she knows I'm watching. Otherwise, she'll bug her sibs. (I homeschool them.) And without Concerta, she is MORE impulsive (acts without thinking), if that's possible. But FASD is known for lack of cause-effect thinking and not understanding consequences. (Not sure any med would fix that.)As for IQ, I agree completely! She tested at 73 when they first came, and although we've had lots of interventions plus the ADHD med, we do NOT believe the jump to 86 to be accurate. No way! But her school accepted that number and tried dropping her from special ed, so we now homeschool. I might be able to have her re-tested through school district (it's been over 3 years), but why bother? I wouldn't trust the result, anyway, given our experience with them. :(

Update: am considering trying gfcf diet for my family (starting with dairy), but learned about choline supplement on theNutrition FASD board and decided to try that first (started 4 daysago). Just tonight my 14-yr-old stopped herself before saying something inappropriate/mean to her dad--- "I'd better not. I'll get in trouble." WOW! That's huge---first time ever, esp beforebe, long afterstimulant has worn off. She also admitted (dueto my sneaky phrasing) thatshewas indeed the on ewho cutsome of the bristlesoff her sister's toothbrush last week. Shestill didn'tknow WHY she did it (didn't remember being mad at sib 3, but also hadn't mistaken sib 3's toothbrush with sib 2 (who has been meaner than usual to oldest sib). So she admitted this was intentional, but DIDN'T KNOW WHY!??? So some progress, perhaps due to thecdp choline, but more confounding nighttime wandering behaviors. I'll put alarms back on when Dad and I are feeling better. Too sick right now to deal with catching kids out of bed!

My MIL suffered from dementia in her last years and made up loads of stuff due to her memory lapses. At the time, I think she knew she was supposed to remember so filled in. Confabulation is really common in adults with brain damage - it's not done to deceive - just because the person knows something is expected of them.

Has anyone else tried CDP Choline (or just plains choline)? I've got to say this seems to be the best intervention thus far!!! Just last week my oldest surprised me AND her speech/language therapist! She had a writing assignment, so I gave her guiding questions and she used the answers to write a clever, interesting, and mostly grammatically correct essay, weaving in historical facts! (Typically she strays from the writing prompt, butchers spelling, subject-verb agreement, etc.) So again, it seems she has turned a corner! Now is it the Choline (supposed to help with memory and processing--used with Alzheimer's and stroke patients), is it the better sleep she's been getting while on choline--I give at bed w/fish oil (11pm-7am! Used to be 11pm-4, then wandered), or is it reduced dairy intake? (Cut out milk, but still eating cheese and yogurt. Will be cutting those soon.) If anyone has tried any of these interventions, I'd love to hear your results. :-)

Just to clarify, the odd behaviors that she (14-yr-old) has done in the past month. (Middle of night or around 6 after DH has gone to work but before I'm up): 1. Clipped (nail clippers) own eyebrows and patches of sides of head as well as eyelashes! (eyebrows cuz she doesn't like their shape, but she couldn't tell WHY the hair or eye lashes) 2. Either snipped (went downstairs to get scissors or nail clippers) or nail filed sib's toothbrush bristles. Doesn't know why. Wasn't mad at sib. Can't "remember" what tool she used to do the cutting, likely because she hid it or wants to do again. 3. Ate almost 1 lb bag of MnMs that were (hidden) in freezer. 4. Ate rest of sister's bday cake--all but 1 sliver of a piece. (Will sneak down and eat anything sweet, thus the hiding of he only junk food in the house...that I didn't get the chance to enjoy.) But good news, hasn't been up in past week. Does seem o be sleeping better, plus no junk in house to tempt her.