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Safe Haven laws are a reaction against criminal behavior that has become more widely heard of thanks to the media.
Of course babies were abandoned in the past. Of course, children were disposed of in the past. We just didn't know or hear of it as much.
Didn't abandonment used to be considered negligent at the least, and killing an already born child found in a trash can or bathroom, either manslaughter or murder depending on the circumstances?
Who started this safe haven law first? I want to know. It disgusts me. Someone accurately stated, in my opinion, that the issue is that a pregnant woman did not make a plan for the baby.
Isn't that the issue? I think it is. And since when is the mother's failure to plan an excuse for ruining any chance that child has for access to future information and due legal process through legalized adoption?
I'm sorry, but I am so mad about this topic I could spit nails. Sometime, somewhere, no matter what the age, maturity level or emotionally stability of the mother, can't someone just concede that we are supposed to be responsible human beings and do the right thing?
And someone says it's better than abortion? That brings up that age old argument that adoptees should be thankful they weren't aborted but adopted. Now we want to say we should be thankful we were abandoned, not aborted? Yeah right. Thanks so much.
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Originally posted by Rayma
Missy M,
Rayma....in your post you state:
"I was literal abandand, but not with the states approval. I know what it feels like. Do you? I have the emotional scares. Do you? My bmom just gave me to an abuseive mom of 5 and left me to fight or die... "
I say:
Honey....look at the difference here. While your situation was/is horrible, your Mom GAVE you to someone,she didn't wrap you in bubble plastic and toss you in the dumpster. I have seen a baby whose mom did just that and Honey it isn't pretty.
You posted:
"You have every right to be concerned for the babies, but this system (in may places) will let anyone leave a baby." Many examples have been pionted out. Go back and read them.
I say:
Don't you understand that even WITHOUT THIS SYSTEM babies are being abandoned??? Noone is angier about this than me but be realistic, what happens to the babies who aren't being havened?? I am not suggesting that the babies be placed in a basket so that anyone can acquire and possibly abuse them, my idea is simply to protect them.... to get to them!
You:
"While I will never agree with anyone helping a bmom abandon a baby, I feel that I'f something like this is going to be set up it must have tight restrictions and receive medical, ethnic, and culteral info along with any other info an adoptee needs. And free psycological treatment for the emotional scares."
I say:
On this we agree, I feel reforms, restrictions and requirements MUST be in place. I simply don't feel elimination is the best solution.
You posted:
"One person pionted out that more babies are placed in safe havens than were found latter abandand before the safe havens were there, if she is correct than the problem of baby abandonment is worse because of the safe havens."
I say: HUH?
I am not sure what this even means and I am certainly not sure if its even correct. But even so, if just one baby is saved by ending up at a haven instead of the city dump, I say lets wait before we eliminate them. I know its hard to see past personal pain but there is too much at stake to toss it out prematurly.
I just feel you misinterepeted my posts and I need to see why you felt the way you did about them and help you understand my veiw.....Missy
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I do agree that everyone should have a history, but not at the expense of an innocent life. I have read way too many articles in the newspaper about abandoned babies found dead, and it breaks my heart. The safe haven law is very complex, but like some have said here already, what's the option. Do you really think that a 13 year old is going to want any information taken from her at the hospital when she drops off her baby??? No, of course not, she would then have to tell Mom and Dad that she had a baby. I would much rather know that these young parents have an option to drop off they're newborn into an ER and get the baby the medical care it needs. I am an adoptee and still have no information on my birthparents, so if it's history that people want to give these babies, then just look at the adoption industry, they don't give us any history either!!!! Sincerely, Brenda.......
Missy M,No, I haven't ever been in that situtation. My main concern is abuses of safe havens. By that I mean that: what if a baby is placed in a safe haven without the mom's or dad's knowing about it. One parent may want the baby and the other may feel that the baby is a problem. And the one who feels that it is a problem may take the baby to a safe haven. How whould the mom get the baby back. Maybe this person is not the type to kill or just leave the baby in a dumpest. And like my bmom, want to abandon the baby, but want it see to it that it's taken care of, or just doesn't want to be charged with murder. Or any other thing were to parent does not have a say.I'm not totaly agaist safe havens, I just feel that in many places the laws are not perventive of these things.The dad should know about the baby, so he can have the option to keep his baby himsel (permanite custody with te mom signing her perntal rights away). But If he is not willing to keep te baby under those circumstances, then the baby can go into a safe haven. But someone who doesn't want anyone to know she's peregant is not going to do that. And there is the posability that he will lie about takeing the baby himself, just to keep her from placing the baby in a safe haven.Yes, a safe haven is better than a dead baby... But the laws need to be more like the laws in your state and they need to be the same in every state. So that a person who can't safe haven a baby in their state can't just go across the state line to safe haven a baby that may not be yours. Here is a parelle: My amom told her teenage dtr to take care of my while they were at a festable. She wanted to be with the boys. So this woman came up and asked if she could hold me. Sis gladdly let her and talked to the boys. Mom comes along and asks "Where's the baby?" Sis says that lady is holding her a turn to point at the women and she's gone. They hurry lookng for the baby, and find the woman getting into a car with the baby. What if there had been a safe haven there? Sis didn't want to be bothered and could have taken the baby there. What if the other woman put the baby in a safe haven? How would the amom get the baby back? This is a true story - I was that baby. And I would have been better of in a safe haven, than with them. But a good, loving bparent or a aparent could loose their baby buy someone putting the baby in a safe haven.With good reform, I might like the idea. But not the way it stands now.And I still would have free psyc care. But I also beleive that all adoptees should have free psyc care if they want it.
Originally posted by Rayma
Missy M,
No, I haven't ever been in that situtation. My main concern is abuses of safe havens. By that I mean that: what if a baby is placed in a safe haven without the mom's or dad's knowing about it.
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ladyjubillee,You sound like you have a sound mind and a good emotional grip on things. That's wonderfull!!!Unfortionly, not all people do. I've seen people fall apart over much less than this.The folling does not compare with the loss of a child, but it's an example of a person who fell apart for very little reason.This is a true story. When we had the ice storm in the south. I was living in MS at the time. The utillities were off just two weeks for most of the people where I lived. This lady tried to commit suiced because she counldn't deal with not having her utilites. And we had one man who whent to the utility co. with a shot gun admanding that his utillities be turn back on NOW or he was going to start shooting people. A friend of mine was so scared That she called me for help. Even tho she had a car, I had to go buy her non-parishable grocerites. She was too afraid to go out, then when I told her that the electric lines were aross the streets (she had asked about the conditions outside) she got even more scared, she wanted to know how I got to her, and why I wasn't affair to go out. I had to explain to her that the tires of the car keeps you from getting electrocuted, that there was not that much traffic any way and that being from the north I had been in these types of situations before.So you see, some people fall apart over very little, so how can they handle something big like loosing a child. Some people just can't think in a crisist situation.As was pointed out it's not a perfect world. And all of us are different. I wish eveyone had your resolve and fotitute. To do with what needs to be done. If so the world would be a little better place.
Well, why would someone who isn't going to care for their child anyway need a law to drop it off at a hospital? Why don't they just do that anyway?
I submit another point:
One: (on another thread) it was pointed out that the safe haven law is for a mom who hasn't "made a plan" for her baby, and she chooses the safe haven option. I submit that she did have time to make a plan, however short the time applicable, and the plan she decides on is the safe haven plan. It is an option, among others, and it is the option she chooses. It is fallicious to say she didn't make a plan, or didn't have time to make a plan.
Again, I don't know about statistics. But basically, it is another option added to the mix for unwanted children. I find it hard to believe that we would legislate such an option to make it an acceptable option.
Sweetnoodle, I'm not absolutely positive, but I think before the enactment of the safe haven laws, mothers who abandoned their babies in public places were subject to possible legal repercussions. However, I'm not sure I've ever heard of a case where criminal charges were brought for abandonment in a case like dropping your baby off in an emergency room. In fact, I'm not sure how many people will be effected or influenced by this law one way or another. Before the safe haven laws, I was never aware that America was experiencing an epidemic of newborns being abandoned in dumpsters or whatever. And I'm still not so sure that this is the case, or that the Safe Haven laws are truly necessary, or that they benefit anyone. Just my thoughts, Sharon :)
Wow...this certainly is an interesting debate and even after all thats been posted and all that I've seen firsthand, I am still not sure of what the answer is. Someone asked why anyone who drops a baby off at a haven type institution even needs a law and someone else correctly stated its a form of protection. Here in Dallas, Texas where I work in the county hospital we actually had only one baby left in the hospitals' restroom before the law was inacted and appox. 33 brought into the haven since then. The mother of the first baby was later turned in by her own mother after she discovered her hemorraging severly and brought her into the ER. She WAS indeed charged with child endangerment and the baby was then made a ward of the state. She was later given probation after pleading no contest; she was 19. The local chapter of the Civil Liberities Union aruged that the child wasn't born there but that she brought it there and therefore did not endanger it and should not be charged. Months later we had the law in place. The law was certainly written to protect newborns and by doing so also protects an abondoning parent.....that just happens to be an ugly consequence of it but again I ask if these women are held accountable they'll stop coming into the havens but will they stop abandoning babies???Missy
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Missy has summed up my fears quite well! I suppose my bottom line is, If a woman WANTS to "drop off" her baby, isn't it in the baby's best interest that she does? That just isn't stability. An adoption plan is something a stable person makes. I don't mean to insult and I am speaking only in this instance, not in general. does this make sense? Any input? Debi
I guess one of my problems is that I thought the law used to be for maintaining good behavior in society, in this case, it seems to be a stamp of approval to act irresponsibly. It's like saying, hey, if you are going to be irresponsible, we want to make it easier for you to do so without any criminal reprecussions. And, I guess, in all likelihood, it does make it safer for the babies, not withstanding their future lives, but I just cannot stand the fact that all of a sudden what was once considered negligence or criminal behavior, or at the very least morally irresponsible, all of a sudden gets to be legislated into an action without moral or legal consequence. (Did I say that right? Not sure if that's clear.)
There does seem to be a certain element of moral apathy here...as in, "Well, if they're going to do it anyway, let's enable them and make it a little easier..." It reminds me of the government funded program that hands out clean syringes to junkies: also a good idea, in theory. All of it just seems indicative of moral decay, and I'm not speaking from a religious standpoint here. I'm speaking about people at some point needing to be held accountable for their actions. True, human life is sacred...but this idea of protecting human life at ANY cost is causing it to devalue every day. :( Just my opinion, _Sharon
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I'm still confused though about the original questions I asked. If nothing is taken (info) and a baby is "dropped off" then how is one 100% certain that it is the paren'ts that are dropping this child off? I live on the cusp of THREE counties, Have countless private and a couple public agencies surrounding me...In a major metropolitan area (Detroit area) soo it's not just the matter of calling up the local hospital/ems/fire dept. It would tae ALOT more than that.
Also, seeing that in some states it's only up to a certain amount of hours old, in others it's a certain amount of days...what about those that try and just cannot do it? whether it be 2 weeks, 2 months etc? they panic and find themselves just wanting to obliberate the situation. Then what ? they drop the child off and they will be facing charges up the wazoo. So in essence, it's a no win situation, it's sort of a now or nothing offer. Why let someone get off scott free. (which is essentially happening) What about the mother? If she is too afraid to turn her child "in" then do you honestly believe that she is going to seek out medical attention? In a small town environment etc can you imagine having to deal with the questions and the commentary? Not to mention when they find a baby (even in the safe haven facilaties) I have heard they sometimes mention it in the local section of the newspaper, wouldn't be hard for someone to put two and two together.
If someone is truly faced with panic, do you really believe they are going to stop and start inquiring as to whether or not hospital A/B/C are safe haven facilities? ( here in detroit, only certain ones are designated as such)
In my opinion, there are too many loopholes and gray areas with this. And if it's going to be enacted then the law defiently needs to be uniformed federally and it needs MAJOR reform.
Lisa
Wow, this is a really difficult one! I totally agree with everything! (how can that be?) but my mind keeps coming back to the baby. IF the "mother" would do this, (assuming it is indeed the mother) and considering all the talk about all the kids in foster care as a result of abuse, shouldn't this baby get away from this "criminal" parent, first and foremost? As a helpless innocent with no say in the matter, if this law would save any babies from being killed and hidden, how does that measure up to the "criminal" charges NOT being brought? I HATE that, but I am still unsure...........I guess my heart just breaks at the thought that a baby would be with a person who doesn't value and commit to him/her, and I want the baby to be in a safe place with loving adults! I think, truly, that is my hang-up with this. Love, Debi