Kcsl

I'm sorry to hear about the RAD issues, that's very hard. Again, the Attachment Disorder Network is a godsend for parents of RADlets. The website is [url]http://www.radzebra.org[/url]. There are other members in Utah, so they could maybe direct you to resources in Utah, or who will at least come to Utah. As to the subsidy issue, doesn't this burn you up? What is the percentage of foster kids that must have RAD? It's gotta be high, and yet, does anyone breathe a word of it? The words attachment disorder were not uttered once in our Foster PRIDE training--well, okay, I uttered them, but the materials didn't, and the trainers said, well, I've just seen kids, and they need love and committment, it takes time, etc., etc. HA! I would call those things necessary but not sufficient. Anyway, also check out the North American Council on Adoptable Children. They have specialists who can give you info on adoption subsidies. You also need a lawyer who is an expert on these issues and who views you, not DCFS, as the client. The website is [url]http://www.nacac.org/adoptionsubsidy.html[/url] Good luck with your girls. We struggle with similar issues with our kids, whom we've had for 8 months. I really hope all our kids find healing.

Based on your recommendations before, I did contact ADN. They signed me up for the Little Zebras group, because they said it would be the most appropriate for our situation. (They said it's for parents "in the trenches." LOL) I'll check out the other info you gave. On the subs, yeah...it totally burns me up! It's funny, because their file indicated...umm...practically NOTHING! It had that they had both had (at one time or another) mild symptoms of depression. (The only therapy they were in was infrequent...& TOGETHER...nothing individual.) Also, it said that our youngest had ADHD & was prescribed meds. We promptly took her off of it, & she's done SO much better! Anyway, they gave us the "max"...$400...apparently b/c of the girls' ages, their length in foster care (6 yrs.), & the amount of moves they had indured (13). It's just interesting, though, because our oldest is having some EXTREME behaviors, (I'll post in a seperate message what I described to the Little Zebras group.) & the UT sub max amount (for therapuetic level kids) is around $1,000. (We don't get that for any of ours, but we were told that recently by someone at the Foster Care Foundation.)

"At our home, she has acted out sexually on animals, hurt animals, exhibited bulimic behaviors, broken many items on purpose, slit our car radiator hose with a knife, poured dog food in the car engine, wets her pants, made false allegations, poor peer relations, bad hygiene, acting out sexually w/ her sister, says she would have sex with a boy if he wanted her to right now, tries to intentionally frame other kids, etc. She also has lying, stealing, manipulating, defiance, sneakiness, violence, & pitting issues. In a prior placement, we have found that she stabbed a younger child with a knife. She seems obsessed with the ideas of suicide &/or hurting others. She has not been diagnosed, but only because her therapist is not well versed in RAD & doesn't like to place "labels" on children. We have no known RAD therapists in our state. We haven't had a full PSYC assessment done, because we're still fighting with Medicaid on their "contracted" providers."

I am so glad you contacted ADN! I am on the ADN list, not the zebra list, a fact that I give thanks to God for everyday, LOL! You zebra parents blow me away with your endurance and commitment. There is no job harder on earth, absolutely none. I often feel at the end of my rope, and I don't face what you do--though what I face is far more than what the parents of emotionally healthy kids face. I look at parenting magazines and just laugh--THOSE are your problems? What a walk in the park! The list of symptoms you describe is enough to take most people's breath away. You are an inspiration! Thank God these girls found you! 13 moves--well, what did the bureaucrats expected to happen after doing that to these girls? Mild symptoms of depression! PLEASE!The therapist doesn't want to put labels on people--Oh, well, would you like to provide, say, 2 or 3 weeks respite, then? Live a while with these kids whom you don't want to label? Would you like to pay for the attachment therapy, and, God forbid, the residential treatment? Or, let's say less, let's say just pony up the few thousand for an intensive. AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! It is just inexcusable. You truly are an awesome mom, and I salute you!

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I know that you know that validation is a HUGE need in the life of parents of "RADlettes." With only ONE licensed year under our belts, we're still considered newbies, but we've stuck with it because we did our research FIRST. We actually studied RAD a ton before we even became licensed, so we knew there were great odds of ending up with a RAD child (if not MANY RAD children). I just think that the system needs to work harder on educating people on RAD, so that parents won't be so caught off guard. If they did that, I believe there would be drastically fewer disruptions. I'm pasting portions of a family update message I just sent out (to close friends & family). Maybe it will help explain a bit of "a day in the life of" parents like all of us. (I need to cross reference this to the RAD section.) -------------------------------------------------- Life has slowly been changing around here since I listened to the aforementioned tape. I already wrote about the "command" practice, etc. Well, we've been getting stricter by the minute around here. It's weird, because just a year ago, Russ & I were totally laid back parents, with no "set" rules, etc. We raised Roddy based around our expectations of him becoming a good, happy, & successful adult. Most consequences came in the form of dialogue...dissecting the action & the whys & why nots of the behavior. For the most part, relaying real world lessons & expectations was sufficient for him. Well, it's a whole different ball game with 3 older, special needs kids. Everything is written now. It's been that way for some time (as any recent visitors to our house can tell you). We have the family rules, daily chore assignments, weekly chore assignments, & table duties posted right on the face of a kitchen cupboard. We have table rules/manners posted in the dining room in plain view, & we have step by step instructions for cleaning duties posted throughout the house. And above the kids' bathroom toilet, a sign is posted that reads: "1. Close the toilet. 2. Flush the toilet. 3. Wash your hands." It may seem like overkill to some, but you'd be surprised about the most BASIC functions that don't occur unless they are spelled out & come with consequences! We've been dealing with some MEGA, HUGE behaviors, but all of the little behavioral issues can be just as (if not more) exhausting. Nancy Thomas (on the tape) calls these "little" behaviors "Chinese Water Torture." <LOL> Finally, someone who understands all of the little nerve-wracking things that are hard to describe to the therapist!!!! Anyway, based on my own personal peeves, I could more accurately describe it as "Someone popping, cracking, & crinkling an aluminum can over & over & over in my ear torture"!! LOL (Or scratching a chalkboard torture...or whatever works for you.) It's hard to describe, but (for example) the other day, Talissa put on a shirt inside out on purpose. JR told her that her shirt was on inside out, & she replied, "I know. I'm going to leave it like this to see how long it takes Joye to notice." Or (as is COMMON with Reactive Attachment Disordered kids) she'll purposely say things wrong to see if she can get me to correct her. (It's a bizarre method to attempt to control the adults.) She'll say, "I was in the CALLWAY." (hallway) "Can I use the LENGTH roller?" (lint) "Is there gas in the MOWER LAWN?" (lawn mower) ETC. This kind of little stuff happens like 35 times EVERY day. On top of which, the kids will test me on the simplest things...over & over & over. I'll tell them to leave the dining room door open, so that cool air can get in there. They'll close it over & over for weeks. When I finally snap & they have to do a chore or something to make up for it, they'll start opening it 1/4 or 1/2 of the way to see if I notice (over & over). Or, if I tell them not to slam the car door, they'll (once they finally stop) start barely closing it, so that the "door ajar" light comes on. I could go on with examples for PAGES, but I'll spare myself the effort. But, you get the picture, right? So anyway, I've just had it! Russ is always harping on me for not taking care of myself (vitamins, eating 3 meals a day, etc.). Plus, I have finals this week. I'm homeschooling these kids through the summer, paying the bills, cleaning the house, etc. I just have reached my max! I don't have time for all of this non-sense everyday anymore. So, many of you may already know about our military boot camp style of discipline. The kids (given that the infraction was significant enough) run the stairs with weights, do push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, lunges, resistance training, etc. (And we felt immensely validated when Nancy Thomas SUGGESTED this type of consequence..."to get the brain cells flowing"!!) That's the "ultimate" punishment in our house! (The kids only get it if they hit, get caught lying, etc.) Anyway, in the past few days, we've changed to having them drop & do push ups on the spot for (1) making me repeat myself, (2) leaving items laying around the house, (3) playing manipulative games like I mentioned above, etc. And in the past, they could rack up extra chores as a consequence as well. We were pretty lax about it though & usually only made them complete the chore when it was convenient for us or whatever. Well, no more! As of 2 days ago, they have NO freedom, NO privileges, etc. until they are 100% caught up & done with (in a quality way) all of their extra chores, daily chores, etc. These kids have been busting their little butts for 2 days & still aren't quite caught up. (It may sound extreme, but if you had my kids for even a week, you'd COMPLETELY understand!) All of that includes things like: scrubbing urine out of underwear (outside), scrubbing between mattresses (where they hide the urine soaked underwear), scrubbing bathrooms from top to bottom (because it was revealed that they were peeing in the shower), etc. (One kid owes me FIFTEEN chores for calling me a "stupid b*tch" last week, saying that I didn't "know sh*t", & saying that they were going to break my nose!! After I said they owed 15 chores, they said, "I don't care. Just give me 100!" I got really, really close to their face, with a big, cheesy smile on my face, & said, "Well, if you were in charge, I suppose you could assign yourself 100 chores, but since I'm the parent, I get to decide how many you'll do. Is that clear, sweetums?") Anyway, they're still testing, but overall, the house feels calmer. I feel more like the parent & less like the doormat. AND THAT'S A GOOD THING!!! At various times, people have raised their eyebrows when they've seen us be on the kids' cases. (They generally think we're being too nit-picky, & they don't really understand the behaviors that are going on.) That has at times made us second-guess ourselves & think we were too strict, but we're coming to realize that none of those people live with our children or have ever parented children like ours. We're finally finding support, understanding, & validation in an online parents' group for parents of Reactive Attachment Disordered kids. Sure, the process is still exhausting, but it's FINALLY beginning to feel more manageable!

WHAT A FANTASTIC POST!!!!! I am copying it and sending it to MY family! You have described my life! No urine soaked underwear between the mattresses, and my daughter actually DID break my nose, but these are minor details. If you were in this room, I would hug you like you crazy. I feel validated from head to toe! It is MADDENING to endure those little behaviors, isn't it? I too have decided, okay, well, I just WON'T endure them, they are going to stop. And, with complete strictness, they have reduced dramatically. But not without people thinking I am just a complete witch. THANK YOU!!! I INSIST that you post regularly! Solidarity, sister, solidarity! No one can know what it's like who hasn't been there!

tybeemarie, Thanks SO much for your post! Solidarity is the perfect word! So many of us parents feel alone & isolated & misunderstood in dealing with these issues, so it's nice to get a conversation going with people who understand & have been there! Definitely send it to your family! We've gotten really good feedback from our friends & family so far. They basically say, "Wow! I had no idea! Well, you are both amazing!" It's not that we're fishing for their kudos. It's just that we need them to trust what we're doing & back off! :o)

I printed off your letter {hope that was okay!}. Gosh, I wish I would of sent something like that in the beginning for my family. They think we are too 'strict' and other times they tell me that our a/son {14} just needs a kick in the butt. One sister thinks our son is spoiled and she doesn't really understand his behaviors are deeper than that. Hard to explain, yet she had step-sons to boot with issues!!! ;) The max in Kansas is $400, but I have heard of families that receive more than that amount. Ours is the $400. We personally have spent more money repairing/replacing items broken by our son when he has anger outbursts. Those monies add up! Do you have an adoption support group in your area? There are several starting up {through a KCSL funding} around Kansas and I think it's an excellent idea! :)

You're more than welcome to print it! No worries. ;) You are SO right about the money adding up!! <sigh> We just found out that Talissa has stolen $365 worth of cash & items from us, & this is only what has been admitted so far! (And you know that many of these kids lie & lie like crazy...then only tell a partial truth the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, & 5th time it is discussed.) On top of that, she breaks things CONSTANTLY when she gets in trouble for something. (Like slashing the radiator hose with a knife, pouring 44 oz. of dog food in the car engine, snapping off the reclining handle on the car seat [to try to frame another kid that she was "jealous" of], ripping out the brand new kitchen sink faucet that my husband just installed, throwing paint all over the door frame since I wouldn't let her help me paint the ceiling, etc., etc., etc.) It gets VERY expensive! Another kid took a knife & carved in the face of a kitchen drawer & pulled down the fabric from the roof of our car ceiling! And a yet ANOTHER kid broke a chair, a bookshelf, & a DVD set on purpose. And so on....It's hard to keep up on the repairs! (And this obviously doesn't account for all of the "normal" costs of raising a child.) Based on the advice of Nancy Thomas, we've actually GIVEN the kids permission to break things now! We told them to "make it good" when they do it, so that it will be completely worth it. BECAUSE the other end of the deal is that now they have to pay DOUBLE the value of the item. We've also given Talissa permission to steal. We told her it would be a game...like "cat & mouse." We told her that we were the cats, trying to catch the mouse (her). We told her we were really excited about it & couldn't wait to get started! LOL As you know, the goal here is to take their control away. Their goal is to manipulate & control situations & "prove" that the adults are idiots, & we make it out like it will be "fun" for us to do detective work. (It was funny, because when we said that, she started crying. You'd expect a clepto (sp) to be pumped to have permission, but it really upset her. We asked her to set a date for when she thought she'd steal her next item, so that we'd know when the game would officially start. She just kept crying & saying she wasn't going to steal again. We'll see, but in the meantime, I have my "cat" mask on!!!) Speaking of which, more than one of them has been caught saying that I or Russ & I are stupid. So now, when one of them is caught being gamey, manipulate, deceptive, whatever...we get all dramatic about the "idiot" part. Like, "Oh! Thank you SO much for helping me to be a little less dumb. You know, I almost didn't catch that one, since I'm so dumb. I'm sooooo glad you're keeping me on my toes...to help me be smarter. It just lets me know that you care a grrrrrrreat deal about me!" I don't say it with sarcasm either. I say it like I really mean it...loud, animated, & followed with a big, tight hug! LOL It drives them crazy!!! (& sometimes to tears!) Also, when I catch them saying it to one of the other kids, I'll have them say it several times (in front of me) during the course of a conversation...like when they get busted manipulating the other kids. So, they'll say, "I think Joye's really stupid," or whatever, & I'll follow it up by saying, "Yep, _______ is just trying to help me to become smarter!" So (back to the repayment on broken & stolen items...) we used to do allowance, but we found that for our kids with RAD, it was a manipulative tool, etc. And for our non-RAD kids...well, they were just being plain lazy about their chores & not earning it. So, Russ & I said "forget it!" Now, when Russ has yard work (big yard work...like digging trenches for sprinklers) or something, the kids can fill out an "application" to work on his crew! They can get a few bucks an hour, & they can get fired for not working. So...it gives them a way to take care of their balances (although Talissa's tab is so high now that she'll be paying on it for years)...or earn some extra money. We do have an adoptive support group, but they usually just combine it with the foster support group. And it seems like all those people are the same...the ones who only want/take babies & toddlers. There are only 4 other families in our county (that I know of) that take older kids, & 3 of them RARELY go to the support groups (probably for the same reason as us). Our UT caseworker recently approached us about becoming licensed as a therapuetic level home, though, which we plan to do. (We'll go through the classes in August.) Russ & I are really anxious to see if there are more parents like us in that group. (They have their own support group.) The downside is that it is about 45 minutes away (as opposed to 3 minutes), but we both feel that it will be worth it (if the other parents are really dealing with the same types of issues we are). P.S. I'm not planning on going back & fighting KS about the subs amount. The very thought of fighting that battle makes us cringe! But we are going to try to negotiate a residential treatment agreement (like y'all suggested). We are SO thankful for that advice. The only thing we're worried about is that in order for us to negotiate it, we're going to have to tell them all the nitty gritty about what we've seen, & we're so scared of them saying, "Nevermind. We'll be sending for the girls." Thoughts?

Send for the girls? Are you kidding? In my experience, agencies are so relieved to have people take these special needs kids, they will hardly do that. They may give you a hard time on the subsidy, but at least in our state, and I presume in yours, too, the state will pay for your adoption attorney if it's on the approved list. So, find out who is good--really good, not some schmo the agencies like because he or she lowballs the kids on the subsidies--and let the lawyer play hardball. You and your DH are incredible parents. Good for you for moving into Nancy Thomas's parenting techniques so soon and so smoothly. It can be hard to do what she suggests, although she is so right. It's hard to give up the dream of having a normal family with normal kids, to really accept at a deep internal level, yes, my child is sick, and so we have no choice but to send her out of the room if she eats like a pig, or to make her ask to use the bathroom, or all the other hard things. You are an awesome Mom!

Well, that's good to hear. The more calmly we think about it, the more we think you're right. They were relieved to get the girls "off their hands," so I can't imagine them jumping to take them back. Y'all won't believe what's happened this weekend. <I'm just pooped!> Talissa has been telling the kids that she "was going to kill the parents any f**king day now." She has also been threating her sister to her face. I sat down & spoke with her about it. I asked her how she planned to do it (choking, stabbing, or shooting), when she planned to do it (when we were sleeping), & how she planned to get away with murder (by making it look like suicide or calling it self defense). Anyway, we took her in to Primary Children's, & they had us take her over to a separate Neuropsychiatric Institute on the other side of town. She has been admitted, so we'll wait to see what happens. (We didn't get home until almost 5:00 AM...after taking her around 7:00 PM!!) Unfortunately, they know little to nothing about RAD & came across as critiquing us for the "running." Still, she's in a safe place now, & we're all safe. They are putting her on anti-depressants & an antipsychotic med. We started family sessions today. Right when our family got home from SLC, my foster son said that it felt like fire when he peed. I told him that we'd take him in to the doctor tomorrow...unless it got worse. A few minutes later, he was balled up in fetal position crying in his room. I rushed him to the ER & sat there for more than 3 hours (after an already anguishing & exhausting weekend). Well, the doctor said the urinalysis was clean & there were no physical indications of pain from the physical exam. We got home, & I questioned my foster son about it. After about 30 minutes, he finally admitted that he faked the whole thing!!! He said that he chose a "penis pain," because he knew we wouldn't say, "Let me take a look." Anyway, it seems that he was jealous of the fact that Talissa got attention by going to the hospital, so he thought he'd give it a shot! Aye, aye, aye!

You must be exhausted, physically and emotionally. I am so sorry about Talissa. I am very relieved that she is in a safe place and that you all are safe. How outrageous that a Neuropsychiatric Unit of a children's hospital would be unfamiliar with RAD!!!! I hope you've shared this with the folks on the zebra list, who might be able to help you with resources that would have a clue. I am just disgusted that anyone would blame you or your husband in this situation. For what it's worth, I have no doubt that you and your husband are doing absolutely the right thing, and that the greatest blessing in Talissa's life is that she found her way to your home. If she is healed--meaning if she chooses to be healed--it will only be possible because of your powerful parenting. How wounded her psyche must be! I feel sad thinking of the revelations to come about the horrendous abuses she must have suffered to bring her to this point. I forget whether we talked about Foster Cline's book, Can This Child Be Saved? I think it is an outstanding book, and it may be of some comfort to you in this devastating time. I will be praying for you and your family. You are a wonderful mother with an astonishing capacity for unconditional love. Sorry about your foster son. At least there isn't some serious medical issue that would take more of your stretched time. And I suppose it's a good sign that he is able to admit he is jealous of the attention Talissa is getting. I forgot you were fostering other kids, too. What an inspiration you are! If posting here is of any benefit to you at all, know that you have an interested and sympathetic reader in me and I am sure many, many lurkers. I think you are just a wonderful mother!

I believe that a child that young would and could kill. Glad you took immediate action. Hope they keep her long enough for you to have a chance to sleep and think about what to do.

Thanks SOOOOO much for the encouraging words! They mean so much right now! The institute knows what RAD is, but we garnered that they know nothing about it, because they actually suggested that we trying using positive reward programs instead!!!!! <yikes> Anyone who knows anything about RAD knows that positive reward programs DON'T work! They are just another tool for the child to use to manipulate the adults, & as Nancy Thomas said, "...to prove that the adults are stupid." We saw that in the past with a "step" program we made up for Talissa. She crashed & burned on it, but the other kids actually ASKED to be able to do it (to get the rewards at the end of each feat). We had a DCFS worker call us this morning to ask us if we were "even" considering taking Talissa back into our home. Wow. Well...of course! She's our daughter! Obviously, we'll take the necessary precautions, but she's trying to get us to give...to "prove" to herself that no other human being will ever be trustworthy or go the distance for her. If we give up on her now, she'll be emotionally damaged ten times what she is now! It's all just so amazing to me. It's amazing that KS had her in custody for SIX YEARS & could only describe her as a "sweet & loving child." It's amazing that there were NO DX's or anything of the sort, & she was only in therapy in the last year...only on a PRN basis...& only in JOINT sessions with her younger sister. As far as I'm concerned, the system tragically failed this child. We'll do whatever we have to to make sure that we don't fail her as well. There's a RAD conference coming up in September, I think, & it's in NM. Since we've found no resources in UT, my hubby & I are chomping at the bit to be able to go. We'll have to come up with the $400+ conference fee for just ONE of us...plus fuel, food, & motel. Wish us luck! We sure could use this resource! I'm actually starting to think about specializing in RAD. I'm a full time psychology student now & have been planning to apply for grad. school. I just hadn't decided upon what speciality I wanted to focus on. Since I know so much about RAD at this premature educational level, am involved with it personally, & see a great need in my state...I'm thinking seriously about (& my hubby & mom are pushing me towards) going ahead & settling down on the RAD field. ...but then I can't decide if I'm just a glutton for punishment!

I know that you have your hands full right now, but I {and more than likely others} have you in our thoughts! How is your daughter doing? Did you cancel your classes? The book that tybeemarie mentioned "Can this child be saved" is a great book. My only regret is that I didn't read it sooner! ;) When you talk with your worker about the residential treatment facility cost, mention my family's ordeal. You may even mention me by name. I just spoke at a conference about my frustrations with the residential facility itself, but if your worker was at the conference, she'll know who you are talking about. KCSL is doing a lot of good things around the state. One of which is conferences for the community {and SRS & the contractors} on how they can help the adoptive families. They also are inviting families to speak as part of a Family Panel. {For those of you that live & have adopted in Kansas, if you want to be a part, just ask your worker!}. Anyhow, let me know if there is anything I can do!