Referral and Time frame Questions

Renn, I am sorry to keep asking such personal questions, but I was wondering how you got the info. on the 10 month old boy. What I mean is did the agency tell you about him but you did not sign a letter of commitment or are you waiting for his letter from the Ministry of Families in Panama that states he is free to adopt? It seems the referral process is slow, and really slow for travel. Thanks for the input. I hear ya loud and clear about the waiting game, it is so hard. We are trying to stay positive and busy, but it really is on your mind 24-7, how can you not think about it:) TanyaB

Tanya, We are apparently waiting for the letter from the ministry of families. We don't have a photo or medicals or anything. Renn

Renn, Timeline: 1. social worker typically has 90 days to investigate the child's orphan ("abandonment") status AFTER that child has entered the care of the DNA. 2. Once the social worker finishes the investigation and submits his/her report to the judge who will handle the child's case, that judge has 30-ish days to decide if the child SHOULD be declared abandoned rather than being returned to the birth family. If the judge agrees, he/she issues an abandonment "resolucion" and sends it to the DNA. (This is when you can "legally" be given a photo and the medical/social report.) 3. Then the DNA matches the adoptive parents' dossier with this particular child's file, and sends both back to the judge to consider the match. 4. The judge has 90 days (doesn't usually take that long, though) to approve/disapprove the match. If he/she approves, the parents will be invited to travel. 5. If the child is a toddler or older, the parents MIGHT be required to spend some weeks with the child in a "hogar sustituto" (just your hotel) with the social worker making routine visits to see that the child is adapting well. This is the exact rundown that our attorney (who has been practicing for 10+ years and has ongoing communication with Carmen Donna Aven, the DNA director whom I have contacted personally) gave us. I have no reason to doubt our attorney. I hope this makes you feel a bit better...Things are probably progressing, but you won't get your photo until the official declaration ("resolucion") of abandonment. :D Rebecca

Rebecca, I don't want to sound stupid, but where does the Ministry of Families fall into this? Is that the judge or is it seperate from that? Did your attorney say on average how long it takes the judge to appove travel? It would appear that the youngest you could adopt a child that was abandoned would be around six months, is that what you were told? Thanks for sharing the info:)

I truly understand each of your frustration regarding the anxious waiting. Panama is such a new program they are still trying to iron out issues. There is light at the end of the tunnel! Our daughter is doing beautifully. I have attached a picture of her. I hope this encourages each of you.

Sara, She is so cute, thank your for sharing:) TanyaB

Thanks for encouraging us with her picture, Sara. What a cute girl you have!! -Kathy

Spanzeri, What a cutie!!!! TanyaB, The Ministry of Families ("Ministerio de la Juventud, la Mujer, la Ninez, y la Familia") is actually the umbrella organization to which the DNA ("Direccion Nacional de Adopciones") reports. So when people are saying that the Ministry of Families will send a referral letter, it's AFTER the DNA has matched the family with a child. (Either step 3 or 4 I listed above...Not sure which, exactly.) The judge approves the parent-child match after the DNA sends your dossier and the child's file to him/her to consider. If approved, then the DNA would "invite" you (through your agency/attorney) to travel. This is after step 4. I think I remember another attorney posting on the Yahoo board that the judge can legally take up to 90 days to make that decision, but that usually doesn't happen. Our attorney told us to expect 3-4 weeks or SOONER! (After the Nov./Dec. holidays, though.) RE: youngest adoptable age, yes, our attorney said 6 months is the youngest age possible when the adoption is complete. This accounts for the 3-month "abandonment" investigation and another 3 months for everything else. I specifically asked our attorney if we located a birthmother (through our friends who currently live in Panama), could it be done faster? Our attorney said, "No, the judge requires the birthmother to wait 6 months before irrevocably releasing her rights to the child." (This is so that she'll have time to think about the consequences of her decision.) The child would stay in an orphanage or foster care during that time....I also believe this rule is more strict than it used to be, perhaps due to the fear that women will flock to agencies to place their children thinking they'll be paid??? Or perhaps just because they feel the woman needs to take more time to make this life-changing decision and to receive counseling. (Not a bad idea, anyway.) I suppose after the abandonment/orphan investigation is complete (minimum of 90 days), the rest of the process could be rushed and happen before the child reaches 6 months of age, but I wouldn't count on it. Disclaimer: The info above is straight from our attorney who has been practicing adoption law for 10+ years and has represented clients who've adopted children from orphanages as well as from birthmothers. But as with everything concerning adoption, each child's case might be different from the next. :-) Rebecca

Rebecca, Thanks for shedding some light on the process. I'm not sure where we are in it, but it helps to get an overview. Tanya - what a beautiful girl! Thanks for sharing the photo. Renn

Rebecca, I was wondering if your lawyer ever explained where older children are at in the process. What I mean is does the social worker come in and do a 90 day investigation on each infanct brought into the system as soon as they are brought in or as soon as someone wants to adopt them? You would think if they did that right away and you wanted to adopt an older infant. I was just wondering if that mattered or if it is a case by case basis as people start looking. Also after the Nov./Dec. holiday season did your lawyer express things will go faster. It seems to me after that long of a delay things would get backed up, but maybe not if this is just how it is every year. Thanks Tanya Also, Renn, That was not my picture, I wish it was, but it is Sara's:)

Excellent questions, Tanya! A while ago our lawyer had told us that the 3-month "abandonment investigation" typically does not begin until a family expresses interest in adopting a particular child. ...and I also just got word today that the DNA (the organization that holds your dossier and is a subsidiary of the Ministry of Families) has only TWO social workers to handle ALL of the orphan investigations!!! I was asking where our social worker was in his report of the the children we'd like to adopt, and the director said he was 6 hours away from Panama City working on another case, and it will be weeks before we should expect him to finish ours and send his report to the judge...and that we should understand that with only 2 social workers, the cases do (and will) get backed up. YIKES!!!! I also got more info from the lawyer yesterday about that interim period AFTER the social worker turns in his report recommending "abandonment" (to make the kids available for adoption). She said: the judge will need to meet with the "fiscalia" (some sort of government office) and request an "audiencia" (where the judge and some official "xxx de menor" meet). This is the point where a panel of officials (including the judge) will determine, LEGALLY, if the birthparents will have their rights terminated. That's called "inhabitacion." Our attorney also said that other attorneys are requesting this same process for their clients, so, yes, we will be on a waiting list to get the "audiencia" (that must also be the "hearing" that determines if the adoptive parents can be approved for the child/ren). This is all far too vague for me, but what I understand it to mean is that NOTHING will move quickly, even after the 90-day investigation is done. Argh! And with the judges and everyone taking vacations during Nov. and Dec., who knows when this meeting with the officials will take place. I can understand now why the agencies are sparing parents of all of these details. I feel more confused now that I did a few days ago! ;) Rebecca

OH MY GOSH.... she is too cute!!!!!!!!!!!!! She has the same shape eyes as my daughter!!! Do you know anything about her heritage, or which indigenous group she might be related to in Panama? I'm online right now doing some research on which groups were primarily in Northern Panama.... my daughter's bio family members are from Las Tablas/Los Santos.... so I'm starting there. How old is she? You must be SOOOOOOO happy..... (an understatment, I'm sure)! Thanks for sharing her pic. POST MORE! POST MORE!! :D ~Kim P. **************** Oops... just wanted to contribute to what Reb was saying... The Fiscalia is like the "middle man"... every document seems to go there for pre-approval and post-approval ... i.e.... let's say one document goes from the social worker to the judge for authorization of some sort -- well -- after the judge looks it over, it has to go to the Fiscal for approval. I believe this office (which I have personally sat in so as to BEG to have my paperwork sped up a bit) has to go over each document to make sure that everything is done LEGALLY, with no errors. I know there's more to it than that, but I just recall that was the simple explanation given to me. I remember being in the elevator of that building and thinking it was going to go crashing to the floor..... it was AWFUL (and small). They were VERY nice in there - but clearly OVEWHELMED by the work load. As for the NOV/DEC "standard delays" - starting in January there is a RUSH to get the stacked up paperwork done. While things do get backed up, the thought of all that backed up paperwork compels the staff to get through things DOUBLE TIME. Very strange, but that was my observation. *I'm sure most of you have been to this site, but I thought I'd post it here anyway, just in case: [url]http://usembassy.state.gov/panama/wwwhadoption.html[/url] ;)

I just wanted to sincerely thank you for taking the time to write out all the information you have provided us in this thread. Even though it is overwhelming I can not tell you how much we appreciate it! You're the best! Jane

Kim P., thanks for your posts, and don't worry about them being too long ... I'm not sure how up-to-date those embassy websites are. When we were researching countries, we would check the embassy website and many times the information was outdated. The US embassy in Panama's website says that the maximum age for the adoptive mother is 40. Apparently the Panamanian officials are telling the agencies something different, because all of the agencies websited state maximum mother's age as 50. (WPA's is 48, but perhaps that is their agency's requirement.) Anyway, let's hope that's the case, because I'm 42! Joan

After reading Rebecca's post, I went through my documentation. Her explaination is right on. Ysabella was brought to the orphanage from the hospital when she was only a couple of days old. Her termination of parental rights occured when she was 8 months old. After the termination of parental rights, per the Hague Treaty the country must allow 2 months for a native couple to adopt the child. Once the 2 months has expired the DNA also known as the "Central Authority" matches you with the waiting child. We were not shown pictures or told about Ysa before her termination of parental rights had been completed. At that point the DNA requested a hearing for guardianship. We received notice in March that the guardianship hearing would be in September. Due to many visits by our Panamanian attorney the courts moved the date up to the first week of May. Once the guardanship hearing was completed and we were granted guardianship, it took approximately 3 weeks for the courts to type and notorize the documents. At the end of May we were allowed to travel to Panama. In Panama you will need to allow for approximately 10 days to obtain a birth certificate, passport and US Embassy appointment. The appointments in Panama are quite different than those in Guatemala. We have to remind ourselves that before this year there was only 4 adoptions out of Panama per year. I am not sure that Panama will come close to being the replacement for Guatemala (2,400 adoptions in 2002) beings that Panama is only 2 million in total population. South/Central America is opening up for more adoptions though, so Panama will not be the only Central/South American country that children may be adopted from. I hope this helps. Kim: She is 19 months old now. She is pretty little for her age, but enough spunk to go around! Joan: I spoke with the Panamanian attorney, he stated that the 40 year old age limit is not fact.