Guatemala Adoption Problems: Fact or Fiction?

I don't think anyone is denying that illegal activity occurs periodically relative to adoptions in Guatemala. You are not enlightening any one of us. I do not believe it happens to the extent that Unicef and others would have us believe. I do not believe adoptions in Guatemala need to be stopped and the system rebuilt - it's a very good system as it stands, better than many foreign countries. Does it stop ALL illegal activity? Obviously not. Couild there be improvemnts? Always. But shut it down and completely regroup or simply shut it down? No way.

Oh, and Sharon, did you see the quote by Mann in the article you quoted asking people to not pass judgement until the facts are collected? That is one of the many beauties of our legal system! Sonya, waiting for Marty

Kristie and Sharon, If your intent is to truly share information so that those adopting children from Guatemala can make an informed decision then I guess your job is accomplished and it's time to move on. It seems to me that a huge part of the issue is that it's not about sharing information it's about swaying others to believe what you believe which isn't going to happen with most of the folks here whom, I might add, have personal experience with the Guatemalan adoption process which gives them some level of expertise in this area. Kristie---I think it's very admirable of you to state that if there is even "One illegal Guatemala adoption" it is too many and we should take a stand. This idea is admirable, but why focus on Guatemala???? I would be willing to bet that there are illegal adoptions that happen right here in the United States. You don't see huge articles in the paper talking about the problems with illegal adoptions in the United States. I have not seen one creditable source that can show or prove that illegal adoptions are "rampant" in Guatemala under their current system. Is illegal adoption wrong---of course. Does it happen everywhere at times---most likely. Laws are put in place to curb/stop crime, but there are always those who break them. People break the speed limit everyday which endangers the lives of those around them. Should we stop everyone from driving because some people disobey the law? I don't think that would go over very well with the majority of the people. Yes, we should enforce the laws that are in place. Yes, at times we need to change or strengthen laws to support or protect the innocent. No, we don't shut down the system and punish the innocent. Just my opinions---I'll probably get blasted, but oh well! BTW---I have no personal attachment to adoption in Guatemala, but I love to visit this group because they have such dedication, resilency and strength. Someday maybe I'll adopt from Guatemala and I would most definitely want to do everything I could to ensure it was a legal adoption---just as all the good folks here do. Patty

In regards to your question: Yes, I have educated myself about the process for adopting from Guatemala (I would never have posted anything had I not done some investigating of my own). Here is my understanding of the process: For Prospective Adoptive Family 1) File the appropriate application for processing an orphan petition with the INS. This includes an FBI background check than can take several months. 2) Have a home study completed by an organization authorized through your state to conduct these studies. Another invasive, time-consuming process. 3) Provide a long list of official documents to your adoption agency/attorney. These include: home study, medical report, most recent IRS filing, employment letter, two witness statements, name affidavit, three letters of reference, certified police clearance, notarized copy of passport, power of attorney, INS filing, certified birth certificates, marriage certificates, divorce decrees, and in some cases, a psychological evaluation. Everything must be notarized and state certified. 4) Wait up to and above 6 months for a referral. Once referral is received, you are allowed/encouraged to visit your child in Guatemala. For this you will need to apply for an entry visa. Once the adoption is finalized (another 6 month wait), you travel to Guatemala again to pick up your child. 5) To adopt a Guatemalan child, that child must legally be declared an orphan. An orphan is a child who, because of the death or disappearance of, abandonment or desertion by, or separation or loss from, both parents, or for whom the sole or surviving parent is incapable of providing the proper care and has in writing irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption ." 6) DNA testing is required by the INS in all cases where the child has an identifiable birth mother. The INS may also choose to personally investigate the birth mother in certain cases as they see fit. The Guatemalan attorney must submit paperwork to the embassy before initiating DNA testing. Again, a lengthy process. 7) To bring your child home, you must secure for him/her a passport, a medical exam and a visa to enter the US. Upon entering the US, you'll again have to clear through INS. The list is incredibly oversimplified, but I tried to keep it as brief as possible while also detailing each intricate step in the process. Tough balance. I also didn't include any cost estimates, as I've seen too many conflicting numbers to feel comfortable. For the Birthfamily 1) As mentioned above, the child has to be certified in Guatemala as an orphan. Either the parents are dead, disappeared, have abandoned the child, etc.... or, in the case of a single parent, has determined that she/he is unable to care for the child. The Guatemalan law does permit direct relinquishment before a Notary by a birthmother to an adoptive family. 2) Before signing relinquishment, a social worker from the Guatemala Family Court has a private interview with the birthmother to explain all of her options, and to assure the court that the birthmother is voluntarily relinquishing her rights. 3) In total, the birthmother has to sign documentation no less than 4 separate times that she is voluntarily relinquishing the child, including a signing at the DNA test. DNA tests can only be performed at 2 (the last I heard) US Embassy approved testing labs. Again, this is somewhat simplified, but only for the sake of email brevity. And yes, I still believe that illegal adoptions are occurring in Guatemala. Do I believe your adoption was illegal? No. I even stated my opinion about the validity of adoptions finalized by posters on this forum. In any system there is opportunity for corruption and illegalities. This is especially true for poverty-stricken countries such as Guatemala, and even more so in an industry that feeds on the heartaches of others. Simply because one person's adoption was completely above-board does not make them all so... and it also doesn't mean we should brush the situation under the carpet and say "well, it doesn't happen that often". If it happens once, it's still wrong. Forcing a birthmother to sign relinquishment documents on 4 separate occassions, while a good start, in no way ensures that the relinquishment is voluntary. Again, in a country rife with corruption, there are many ways to force a birthmother to sign documentation... threats of bodily harm, economic ruin, danger to her other children are just some of the methods. And, in a country with an illiteracy rate of 30% and more, how can you guarantee that the birthmother understands what she is signing? Someone here will surely claim that the documents are explained to her... but can you guarantee that the officials doing the explaining are 100% honest and accurate, 100% non-coercive in their explanations? Additionally, Guatemalan law and US Embassy requirements specifically talk about classifying a child as abandoned. How difficult is it, really, to steal a child from its family, travel with it across country, and wait out the period necessary to have this child labeled "abandoned"? Sounds like a lot of work, and I know many in this forum will think "nobody will go to that much effort", but in a country where the average monthly income is $250, it wouldn't take much (by US income standards) to compensate someone for such activity - activity that may mean survival for the culprits own family. Sure, adoption of abandoned children take longer, but it's not nearly as impossible as one might like to think. AGAIN... I ask that those of you who have completed adoption from Guatemala be the loudest voice for reform of that nation's adotion laws. Your adoption was completely above-board and legal... so shouldn't you be the ones urging guarantees that everyone else's adoptions be just as legal??

Hi, Just wanted to add that I read and also heard from our private tour guide in Guatemala, that the average income is $125 a month and the illiteracy rate is much higher than the 30% you listed. Alot of times , radio is used as a way to get messages to people there,,this has been an esp. effective way of promoting birth control/family planning in the more rural area's in Guatemala. We can only hope that the court appointed social workers are indeed explaining things correctly to the birthmothers. We have quite a few patients where I work who cannot read or write, but understand exactly what kind of surgery they are having, the risks etc..and sign with an X on the consent form. Let's close this thread,,I feel we have all discussed this enough and we would all agree that we don't want anything iillegal going on in any country...in regards to adoption or anything else..thanks, Cathy

I appreciate your thorough review of the process and clearly spelling out the law. So where do you think the law needs reformed? If those steps are followed, I certainly envision a legal adoption. To me, the law does not need reform, but the people who break the law--and I still do not know to what extent this happens--be caught. You lay out a couple examples of how the law can be broken to perform an illegal adoption. Do you have confirmed cases where this happened or are these hypothetical situations that could occur? I would love to read about cases that have run through the legal system where these have been founded problems. Sonya, waiting for Marty to come home

Seeing as I am the one who began this unexpected tirade, I would appreciate clarifying my position..... Firstly, I am fully aware of how long and arduous a process international adoption is and how emotionally and psychologically trying it can be for all concerned. I appreciate the heart felt dedication to offering nurturing love and warmth to children who do not have the chance of a loving home. I did not post to slander or infer ignorance or stupidity on the part of any potential adoptive parent. I was simply blinded by my personal concern at the unfolding of personal tragedies that play out not only in Guatamala, but poverty-stricken countries around the world. I supposed I might meet with some terse comments but the way in which I have been blighted and pounded between differing ideologies is enlightening to say the least. I apologise to whomever felt offended. I wish too, however, make it clear why I was driven to comment on this, and perhaps I should have stated the case first, but somehow my own background felt irrelevant: I grew up on the African continent, the smell of corruption and poverty lingers in the air I breathe to this day: there was no escaping it. I spent my life in proximity of children, with bulging tummies and covered in flies, playing in filth, while a parent , grandparent, brother, would beg for any kind of handout from passing traffic. And the well to do would leave them there as irritating, virtually invisble enities, brushing aside their hardship with a casual wave of the hand. And I do know the power and insidious cunning of propoganda first hand- it touched my life in a deeply personal way: I have nothing to gain from propogandising anything on this forum or anywhere else.... and frankly, I am offended by that kind of blanket accusation. It is unwise to toss such words out when the full implication is not really understood, for not having tasted it first hand... The abusive use of children for monetary gain from prostitution, farming, manufacture etc, is endemic worldwide and adoption is not immune to it. Illegal trading of children occurs everywhere: To blindly refute its existence is simply irresponsible - not what I expected from this forum to be frank. That was a solid wake up call. Perhaps the cause of adoption, especially from Guatamala would be well served by some public profiling of success stories... Where I grew up, just by the way, the plight of street children worsened and intensified from the 1970s because of legislation prohibiting the adoption of infants or abandoned and orphaned children because of their skin colour!!!!!!!!!!! So anyone who even wanted to adopt was not allowed to do so. By 1993, 80 percent of that country's population was under 18! And over 20 000 street children in one city. There is much amiss within the adoption industry as a whole, worldwide: I have kept my opinion to myself... but I will say that None of you have the right to slander my intentions. I have never tried to slander yours. For those of you who have responded so forcefully as if I were only out to bash adoption, examine that overly zealous and defensive reaction: why are you really so threatened? It made me feel as if I alone held the power to stop Guatamalan adoption. The core of my concern? the nature of the commerical beast adoption has become and those who pay the price. I am not against adoption: I am concerned about some of the practices and attitudes generated by the industry. I find it appalling that prospective parents have to cough up upwards of 30 000 USD because they want to give a child a home. It is proposterous. Other concern I have, inlcude adoptees and birth parents alike. I am genuinely concerned and that is all I am. It speaks volumes if that is enough to get me crucified. But I will not be browbeaten into silent compliance. I do not have a problem being told I might have my facts wrong. I have a problem being lambasted for giving a d*****. If I have any agenda at all, it is the hope that one day the procedures and consequences of adoption might no longer be so brutal and assume a more human face. As far as I am concerned this dicussion is over. respectfully Rene

KristieMaureen: You stated that you are hoping to adopt internationally. Every country that does adoptions internationally have had some "scandal" reported by the media. The US is not immune to these scandals. It is also especially true for Eastern Europe. If you are really going to adopt internationally, you need to start doing some real research and talking to parents who have adoption and to agencies and embassies. ***** The idea that getting a child at any cost it just not true. I feel safe saying that the overwhelming majority of adoptive parents would be horrified and disappointed to learn that their child was forced away from the birthmother. I have a friend who is Guatemalan and has just returned to the states recently. I asked her what she thought about adoptions. She sadly told me that it was impossible for me to understand the depth of poverty that existed in the country and yes many women willing place their children for adoption.

Are those of us threatened by the things you mention? You bet. Many of the delays adoptive parents are experiencing now with their legal adoptions are due to individuals and organizations fighting for ALL adoptions to be above board. The country came to a screeching halt due to the Hague treaty this summer and it is possible that will happen again with "new and improved" laws to stop ALL illegal activity. We are concerned for the children and they are the ones who suffer when the adoption process is halted or slowed considerably. Some adoptions don't take place, some are delayed so long that the children are more than a year old by the time they come home- that can result in attachment issues that the child may never completely overcome. What happens to the children who ARE relinquished voluntarily? More delays, and more children not being adopted because prospective parents go elsewhere, so more children ultimately in orphanages and on the streets. In the long run, by trying to save a few, many more children will suffer, and that threatens those of us who are trying to bring our kids home. I have not heard of a good solution that will not delay or temporarily stop the adoption process and that's not okay with me.

Sharon- The Boston Globe article is the one that has been has been in syndication for months. The more recent articles have been in Florida newspapers for the last week or so. Nobody here claims to have psychic powers. We have the internet, the same as you, and have access to the same information. Clara- If you claim you do not intend to slander people that's all well and good. But when people respond to your posts, don't accuse us of being on a tirade or of crucifying you. -Kathleen

I have to agree on one point - and i am sure that this point comes up with every family that has ever adopted from another country - the money issue. It sometimes makes me very angry that it costs as much as it does to give a child a better life, to be a parent, to adopt. It sickens me. In a way it is exploitive and only gives the opportunity of adoption to a "select few" that can actually afford it. So many children - yet a high price tag??? It is very sad. I don't think that it is just something that is specific to Guatemala. I think it is an issue in every country. I think a big problem is when you are dealing with a country that is so impovershed it is kind of blindsided to not think that money makes some people do some exploitive and horrible things. We do it because out of own desperation to have a child. But it narrows it down to so few people. How many adoptions last year? 2000? Out of a country of what? 14 million? So many children that need homes there should be a better system to bring more children home to families. Maybe i am oversimplifying it and looking at things with rose colored glasses but if money were not the "issue" would we even be having this discussion???? Just my 2-cents Christina

Clara, I can understand your disdain over the costs of an international adoption. Most of us adoptive parents had to pick our jaws up off the floor when we first learned of the staggering amounts. I know my first thoughts were, 'Why would it cost so much? Children need a home. We can give them one.' But, adoption here in the US is just as expensive, and perhaps even more so. I've met many who have spent $50-60,000 by the time all is said and done. But, adoption has many costs. When a pregnant woman in Guatemala makes an adoption plan with an attorney, he will begin to pay for her medical care, often the first time she has seen a doctor. He will pay for prenatal vitamins, ob/gyn appointments, the hospital delivery. Even if she changes her mind after the baby is a few weeks old and decides to parent her baby, the attorney is out of considerable money. Sometimes the birthmother doesn't make an adoption plan before birth. She gives birth at her home, and tries to feed and take care of her child and work, all at the same time. After a few months, she comes to the sad conclusion that her baby is not growing and she cannot continue to parent as she had hoped. So, she seeks out an attorney to place her child at that point. Yes, it may appear to be cheaper for the attorney out-of-pocket expenses at first. But, a very young child who is malnourished could require hospitalization and ultimately specialty formula in order to help her catch up on her nutrition. Again, all at great cost to the attorney. And what about the attorney who takes on a special-needs child? This child might have expensive medical issues, plus his stay in foster care could be many, many more months or even years until a forever family is found. So, when we pay for our adoption, and it moves along at the normal pace, not only are we paying our attorney for all the legal costs and court appearances and foster care and medical care and paper work, but we are also helping him to pay his staff, rent his office, and yes, care for other children that haven't found their forever family. And yes, care for pregnant women who will ultimately change their minds and decide to parent.

If I may point out something... While the women and children found in the Costa Riccan raid were from Guatemala I think it's important to note that they were in Costa Rica -- which I think gives credence to the opinion that the safeguards (DNA, birth mother interviews etc.) instituted by the US Government are working. If kidnappers and child traffickers have to export their victims to a third country before arranging illegal adoptions then it seems to me it's because it has become too difficult to operate illegally in Guatemala. Having been a member of the press, I do not believe that the stories are part of a grand media conspiracy. But news stories by their vary nature can only focus on one part of an issue. And, I might add, the Newsday story was written in a less than objective way, with statements made without attribution or evidence. I am horrified by the prospect that any children are unwillingly taken from their mothers. But legal adoptions should not be grouped with kidnapping any more than driving legally should be grouped with vehicular homicide.

I think this discussion has been good. I would like to think that anyone truly seeking more information have been given a lot to think about.

I am a little offended that those of us who replied have been accused of saying hateful things that just didn't get said and accused of doing it in a hateful way. I would like to thing that if someone posts a new thread like this they would be open to hearing what others in the thick of it and who have been experiencing Guatemalan adoptions for years would have to say. Yes, it does at times get emotional, but that is just the way it is.

Seriously, we are on a forum on the internet....I don't see any of us solving any of the world's problems from the front of our computer screen arguing about this. If you really care, then seek out a way to do something about it. Fund the side that you believe in. Join a group with similar feelings. I would like to think that all of this bantering has had more of a purpose than just debate. Get involved. Make a difference if you feel so strongly about something.

I hear both sides saying that they want what is best for the children. Maybe we need to just close this thread with that and agree to disagree on some of these issues.

Blessings to all of you for a very peaceful holiday season! Now, go wrap some presents or eat some Christmas fudge!!! SMILE, have fun, do a good deed today!!

Bitsy, all I have to say is "AMEN" to that! Have a good day and enjoy the holiday season!!!!!! Gina Mom to Mariel (4 domestic) and Nataly born in Guatemala 5/30/03