Looking for explanation of behavior?

The support groups are the best. I haven't been lucky enought to find one just yet. But my son attends a theraputic preschool and i loved the parent group. It wasn't supposed to be a support group, BUT we kind of turned it into one of sorts. Just being with other adults-parents and/or grandparents - who's children behave similarly is awesome and a real pick me up. I've had people give me the lectures - "that's how kids are at that age," "oh, he's not that bad", "your just blowing things out of proportion", "I guess you really don't know much about kids/parenting". And truthfully, some of it starts to wear on me, and make me doubt myself sometimes. But when that happens, I remember my son's first day of Pre-K. He ISN'T like other kids. He DOESN'T do what kids his age do. He was the only child in the room that couldn't sit to listen, he ran around, checked everything out, touched everything, put his hand in the fishbowl - repeatedly, hid in the closet, climbed in and out of the cubbies, etc. The other kids WALKED around, looked at stuff, occasionally touched something, and then sat and colored while the teacher talked to us. Granted some wanted to be very close to their parent, but none of the stuff my son did or to the EXTREME that my son did. That was the moment, I KNEW. It wasn't me being over dramatic. He IS different. And talking with other parents is awesome. Knowing you're not alone. Knowing other parents have the same challenges, sharing experiences, laughing at some of them, crying at some of them. Sometimes the help comes by just having a shoulder to cry on, an ear to bend, or listening to someone else's challenge or solution.

Well it sure sounded like RAD or attachment issues to me until your last paragraph saying the therapist, social worker and you agree it's not RAD. Your daughter sounds a lot like my sons at that age and both have been diagnosed with RAD-but a mild form. Most of the time they are fun, loving and easy going kids but that can change easily. Specialized attachment therapy has helped. And we follow the Nurtured Heart Approach which focuses on "difficult" children in general along with Love and Logic. Good luck-hopefully it's just a stage she's going through.

hmmmm sounds familiar.. :) since the child does not have RAD, you might want to put her on a star chart (consistency is the key) my son is also strong willed, thats a nice way to say it...lol....i do give count to three (alot of people dont like the counting thing, but it works for us.) if he doesnt do what i ask him to do after i count to three, he goes into time out. if he doesnt go into time out...i start counting again and that is how many minutes i have him sit in time out... it took a while, but its amazing to see him run into time out... also, if you find you are going up to like 30min...one thing you can always do, as the parent, is manipulate the timer..... :rolleyes: remember, the time out, is usally to calm the child, so it the child appears to be calm..then like majic, the bell goes off... oh, the big thing is consistency.....if your not consistant on the behaviors you are trying to change, nothing is going to work.... its hard at the beginning, but in the end, it should pay off. as for RAD...alot of our kids do have attachment issues, but not RAD....they are two different things.

Sounds like RAD to me also. I know you said she doesn't have RAD, but she could have attachment issues, which will manifest themselves in the exact behaviors you listed. Was the therapist who said she didn't have RAD an attachment therapist? How did they determine she doesn't have RAD? I would consider consulting one. It can't hurt. These actions are precisely what an attachment disordered child would have.

Thanks for the input. The therapist and SW, I believe, think she does not have RAD because the inappropriate affection with strangers is not a huge problem, for one thing (she has done this about six times over seven months). I think they also do not realize the extent of the defiance and controlling behaviors, because they have not witnessed them. Also she does seem to be attaching to us, especially to me. We all have thought (until recently) that she had attachment issues, but not RAD. The therapist agrees that she has behaviors that are syptoms of RAD (10 if 18 on the checklist I found for RAD, 5 of 9 for ODD). However, she thinks the behaviors are more from grief because of the time she has been with us (7 months) and the recent adoption finalizations. M is definitely talking alot more about people from her past...missing one person terribly, but also recalling details of abuse we were not completely aware of before (could only guess at). The therapist thinks M has PTSD and Anxiety Disorder. I am hesitant to 'label' her with anything too quickly, but if helps me/us better understand what is going on and how to handle it, then it would be helpful. I tend toward thinking she is both grieving and has mild RAD. Gotta run. Thanks again :) !

sfbaymom, alot of kids in the system do have attachment issues...who wouldnt you might want to read a few book on parenting a child with attachment issues....it is different then parenting a child that doesnt. the child doesnt have to have RAD to learn how to parent a child with attachment issues. when my older son came to us, he did have a dx of RAD...but he did attach to us. since then, his RAD dx has been taken away, they said that dx was given to him when immediatly removed from birthmom and he wasnt acting 'normal'.. :eek: ... however, they did say he has an anxious attachement. due to his PTSD and anxiety, it did make it hard for him to just throw caution to the wind and attach. the books that i have read, parenting with love and logic, parenting the hurt child....etc. has helped my son. all my tradtional parenting would not of helped him..so i had to investagate other ways to parent him and those books really helped me look at things differently. another point, a child that came from a abusive/neglective background, does have some limitations....their brains were not developed correctly, not the childs fault. the brain developes in the first two years of a childs life..so her tantrums and such, she might not have some control over.... i guess what has gotten us through some of the hard times...and not take some of it so personal, is that some things they are incapable of doing due to their brains dont function like a child that has not experienced abuse/neglect for their first two years. hope this is making sence. Its one of things, that if someone has a history of depression for instance....and when they are depressed, for me to say 'just get out of bed, and enjoy the sunshine'....just wouldnt work with them....if its clinical depression. they didnt choose to lye in bed...they just cant help it. hope this is making sence...i think ive confused myself...my son is hanging all over me and its making it diffulcult for me to think.... well, gotta go...

adopting 2 girls from foster care at 4 year and 17 months my thoughts on the entire thing has really changed over the past 6 months..... 1. my girls do soo much better because a weathered the storms when they were 1st with me, but they were totally away from the mess of foster care b-parent visits and icky socail workers at the ages of 3 and 6.....things got a lot better when they knew that they knew they would not be returned to the abuse and that they were here forever. the trauma of not know and having to play the visitation game is so damaging that I don't know how any child makes it 2. I got my son too late.....no mountain of anything is going to make a difference unless he wakes up one day and wants it. Love her as much as you can. hold her as much as you can...and be there for her as much as you can she is not the enemy, but a little child who has been through hell and gets to go back each time she visits the b-parents...

dadfor2, Good advice. I have read Attaching in Adoption, A Child's Journey Through Placement, Toddler Adoption, and Love and Logic for kids under 6 (among others). I will check out Parenting the Hurt Child. I think all the books are so helpful and have great advice and information. The key (for me) is to remember to use the advice when you need to. All my books are highlighted and covered with sticky notes. I go back an re-read those sections as often as I can, to remind myself. rindiva, We have not had to deal with bparent visits. We had TPR fairly soon after placement, and finalized right after the six month mark. However, she does get to "go back" to hell every time she remembers the horrible things from her past (which is happening more and more frequently, lately, as the shock of the move has worn off). I am not trying to make her the enemy (I know what you meant)...just trying to find better ways to cope with her behaviors and our whole situation. Thanks!

sfbay, you might want to make a list (short one) and put it on your fridge. tomorrow ill post my list....it helps when your just so caught in the midst of it...no time to get the book out and look up the highlighted pages...lol just a quick list what you think you might have trouble remembering and post it... or you can just make a big sign, and hang it in the kitchen...'be patient'....lol. it might look tacky, and you can always take it down when company comes...but its just a quick reminder to be patient.... these kids do bring us to a boiling point at times...well, alot of times...lol ill post my list on a new thread...hope i remember..i think it might be useful for alot of us...

In my opinion, and it's only an opinion, the 'flashback' episodes are a good thing. Although it seems like hell. She is feeling comfortable enough in your relationship to trust you with those difficult, horrible emotions. These are tough feelings for her. She doesn't yet know how to handle them and what to do with them. Just try to help her along, and let her know she's safe and most of all that she is LOVED and will always be safe with you and LOVED with you. Feel safe and loved goes a long way with our kids. Well, mine anyway.

dadfor2, Actually M's therapist suggested something similar, and you just reminded of that. Great idea! I'd love to see you list. q's mom. I actually think it is very healthy as well that she is talking more about the past. I do think it means she feels more comfortable and safe(er) with us. I know she is still worried about moving again, and even about abuse happening again, from things she has said. I am thrilled that she is able to express her feelings as well as she does at this age. I always try to support her feelings..."That must have been scary, that must have made you sad/angry, etc." and that any child would feel worried/sad/mad if that happened to them (depending on what she is talking about)". I then try to reassure her that she is safe now, that nobody here will hurt her or let her be hurt, that she is in our family forever (remind her about the adoption finalization and what that means - that this is different than other placements because we adopted her). You guys are awsome!

sfbay, Thank you for this honest thread. To honor your honesty, I will be honest as well. What you describe screams attachment issues to me. Perhaps not RAD, but perhaps, as you say, the therapists have not seen your daughter "in action." Maybe it is "just" attachment issues. I'll say more than maybe--it's almost gotta be attachment issues. I've had my 3 for 8 months now, and got them assessed in April. Still waiting for the written reports on the older 2, but the oral assessment was PTSD on all 3, FAS on the younger two, and attachment issues all around. My response to these diagnoses was, "I can't handle FAS or RAD! I did a very searching self-assessment in considering adoption, and those 2 things were the very things I knew I couldn't handle as a parent." The psychologist said, "In fact, you can. You've been doing it, and you've been doing a good job." I think it is very easy to say to ourselves, "It can't be RAD," but what we are really saying is, "It can't be RAD, because I just cannot handle that." Well, with the insanity of the foster care system, the poor pre-natal environments of our kids, and the abuse and neglect suffered before being placed in care (and worse, the abuse and neglect suffered thereafter), it would be a miracle that any child DOESN'T have RAD or some less dramatic manifestation thereof. It took my 9 year old daughter breaking my nose to get me to admit, oh, okay, maybe we have some RAD issues going on here. And even then, I didn't come to that conclusion myself, it was the gentle suggestion of a very experienced mom at the Attachment Disorder Network that did it. My subconscious knew, apparently, because I got myself to a Nancy Thomas training, which ADN sponsored. (You owe it to yourself to read When Love is Not Enough by Nancy Thomas, as well as her other training materials. Truly life changing.) Then came the assessment and diagnosis. And even then, you don't want to acknowledge, really, that this is where you're at. My daughter's therapist suggested I read Daniel Hughes's book, Building the Bonds of Attachment, and reading it, it hit me again--this is more extreme than my daughter, but essentially, this is my daughter. The good news is, once you come to grips with whatever the situation is, it is much easier to find the right interventions, the right treatment, and the right support. Now, I don't know your daughter, of course, and maybe it's not attachment, maybe it's something else. I guess this is a very long way of saying sometimes our fear of a diagnosis can make us reject it prematurely. Also, keep in mind that almost none of the social workers or therapists in the child welfare system are sufficiently trained in attachment issues. At least not here in IL. I hope you and your daughter get the support you need. I'd love to hear how things go for your family. We're pulling for you!

I think one thing to remember is that your daughter has only been with you for 7 months...not a long time to 'prove' to her that she is there forever. one thing i have learned, and i truly believe this with the bottom of my heart... kids that have been hurt by adults, it takes more then words to truly believe that 'we' will be there. our kids find it really hard to trust us...and all adults for that matter. afterall, we are the ones that moved them from their birthfamilies..... one thing for sure, they do try to self sabotage..they will push you away before you push them away.... its a survival skill...not sure if she was in a foster home before you...but children think that their foster home is now their forever family....we might explain not, but they cant quite get that... then they get moved to either another foster home or adoption placement... so, what does this 'family' thing really mean to them? if any child came into a home, after some of our kids experiences, are appeared 'normal'....i think that is what would scare me even more.... it aint easy..that we all can attest too....but with being consitant, and keep going, they just might 'get it' that we are not leaving... some do 'get it'...but some dont, they just cant let anyone in...and thats the sad part of all of this. i do agree, the fact that your daughter is talking about issues, she is trying to make sence of her life...thats trust...so hang in there...remember, its in her time to heal, not ours...(thats the hard part..lol)

I can empathize with you because several years ago I was at the point where I thought my child had been programmed by an evil force to be as annoying as possible. It was so hard not to take it personally (for me, not dh!). In Jane Nelson's "Positive Discipline for Preschoolers", there was a chart that showed what kids' misbehavior stems from and ways to prevent/respond, and I kept it taped to the fridge door for about 2 years, mostly to remind me that ruining my day was not really her goal! About the clicking noise, though, and the pushing on the car seat, I am wondering if she has been evaulated for sensory integration issues? My daughter had a lot of sensory-seeking behaviors (dancing/spinning, rocking in chairs, constantly chewing on things/talking, leaning hard into/pressing into people she was sitting on or beside, just to name a few...) which seemed like unrelated annoying misbehaviors or peculiarities until I learned more about sensory issues. Now they make more sense and we have been able to help because we know what is behind it. My friend's son has larger sensory issues and his constant low-volume but repetetive mouth noises drive her crazy, but at least the various speech/occupational/phyiscal therapists she has worked with have given her strategies for dealing with it, and she knows he really can't help it the same way a typical kid can. When our f/a toddler had an evaluation recently, sensory info was one whole section of what they asked about, so I think there must be even more available in terms of help now than there was when I was ready to run away from my daughter. Hope you get the positive changes you are looking for!

Don't have much time right now, but I anted to say to dadfor2 that our home was M's SIXTH placement within one year :( . Prior to that she probably lived with at least three different sets of bio relatives, in probably about five or more homes. As I say to the therapist and DH, I think it would be a miracle if she DID NOT think she would move again! To top it off, the last placement was supposed to go to adoption and the couple backed out...after telling M repeatedly that their family was her "forever family" :mad: . Most kids would never think it was possible that they would have to leave their family. M knows that it can and does happen over and over and over - with no warning. Why would she possibly believe it will not happen again? I try to explain that this is different because we adopted her and the other families did not, but she can only understand and believe so much at this age. Anway, there's been some great advice on this thread. I'm going to go back and re-read it all tomorrow. Thanks everyone!