What exactly constitutes neglect?

I was just in a weird situation where I felt the need to report an incident that I had heard about second and third hand. I thought that being that far removed from the situation, it was basically a rumor and I thought it might be inappropriate to report it, however, the incident was so serious I felt like I needed to do something. I ended up being able to go with one of the people involved to her caseworkers office and ensured that DCF was informed but it did make me question under what circumstances you should report something. Is it appropriate to report something you hear second or third hand as long as you are clear in your report that you didn't see the incident yourself?

I'm surprised someone at school didn't report her. Where I am, smelling of urine, medical neglect, holes in schools, all constitute neglect.

This is really my concern--that the kids are being left to fend for themselves. Once when I dropped the ten year old off at her house, the doors were locked and she knocked and knocked. No one came to the door, but we could see her younger siblings (twins about 18 months old) playing in the living room alone. Finally the girl opened a window and crawled through to get in. It seemed weird, but maybe the mom was in the bathroom, or asleep? I also didn't think it was safe that they were living in an apartment with a window that didn't lock. I know the family is really struggling financially and I have wondered if they have a washing machine because that would really make it difficult to have clean clothes. There have been a couple of other things that I wondered about, but nothing "big," and things that could be just a one time lack of judgement on the part of the young single mother. I don't want to cause more trouble for them, but I also don't want to leave kids in an usafe or unhealthy situation. I think I will have to report...my social worker told me that I should. I just wish that I had something more concrete than I have.

Have you talked with her teacher? I would discuss with her and see if she notices the same thing you do. Maybe she knows more about the situation than you do. If she doesn't know anything more, and she too is concerned with it, I would report it.

My adopted daughter (age 11-ish-12-ish) is still a pretty regular bed wetter. She was adopted internationally at age 10/11. She had always wet the bed, and I think she was very used to the smell, maybe even comforted by it. I believe, because she lived in an impoverished developing country with no running water in her home, she was afraid to get up in the night to go to the bathroom (which was probably outside). She now wears pull ups every night, and does not bathe every morning, but bathes in the evenings (not enough time before school). She does not smell. The pull ups do a pretty good job, but sometimes it leaks through to the bed. I would say her bedroom has that ever-present slight urine smell, but certainly not gag-worthy.

Again, I have to say - maybe someone at school DID report this. We can't assume they didn't, just because we can't "see" that anything was done or investigated. Personal story on this - over my years as a teacher I have reported on three kids. @ of them they never told me ANYTHING about at all, and I don't know what was done. They might have investigated and closed the investigation finding no problem, they might have offered the family services...I don't know. All I know for sure is that the kids didn't go into foster care, not the year I had them, anyway. The third one I was a bit surprised - they told me there was a lengthy file and the family was already "known to" CPS. That's all. That doesn't mean they weren't doing anything, but it certainly means they don't tell people outside the immediate situation much. So when I see the comment that someone is "surprised" the school didn't do anything, I wonder how on earth we'd know whether they did or didn't? I think a lot of us expect to see instant results - and assume that if a report had been filed the child would suddenly be clean and well cared for. That is not always the case. Here's an even more personal story - teachers reported on my foster son for YEARS and nothing was ever done except for him being briefly taken into foster care for a few weeks here and a few weeks there. In that case, cps CLEARLY "dropped the ball" but it wasn't for lack of reports from teachers. He was filthy, he was underfed, he never had appropriate clothing (too small, no winter coat, etc). by the time I got him in grade 9 I noticed the stench and he was already IN foster care by that time.

Let me clarify. My youngest is a bedwetter. If he didnt' shower in the morning, he'd go to school smelling of urine. The school psychologist told me that this could be reported. I told my DS and he now gets in the shower if he wets the bed. L, who I got at 6 wouldn't get in the tub. I let him wash up in the sink. As soon as I got word that he smelled in school, I told him he could wash up in the sink but he had to rinse off in the shower. He actually then started taking showers. Last year, I got a report that he smelled and I would smell him to make sure he used soap. I say this to say of a parent gets a call that his/her kid smells, I'm assuming that said parent would take measures to correct it.

I hear what you are saying, but my response was directed at the idea that the school must not have called anyone. I'm just saying they quite possibly DID call - either the parents or CPS - but whoever they spoke to hasn't acted appropriately. Just defending my colleagues, I guess ;-)

I did talk with the teacher today after school and she has noticed the same things. She wanted to ask me if I had noticed since my daughter is a friend of the child in question. She said that nothing has been reported, but I think she will do something now and so will I. Thanks so much for this discussion. It is has really helped me think more clearly about this situation and what I should do.

I am glad you decided to report. This is clearly neglect, lack of parental supervision, the the "neediness," of the child, the filth- sure everything separately can be explained away, but its the whole picture that paints it as neglect. You need to tell CPS about MORE then just the smell of urine but also the time you dropped the child off and no one answered the door, how the child acts in your home etc. All this information will be very helpful to them. For those that said don't report it because of the devastation of a false report, please consider the ramifications for people not reporting when children really are being abused/neglected. WHEN IN DOUBT, REPORT. I say this from experience. I am in the child welfare field and many many times I have regretted to have to report something because the family had been doing so well, or I had had such a good feeling about a family and built a rapport with them- it doesn't get easier but ultimately all that matters is that someone was there for that child to see their needs were not being met, and stepped in. Please, if you have not already reported, report. Thank you, I know it's not easy!

I hope you have reported. By what it seems you saw when dropping her off... If I continued to see that sort of situation, I would call in. And I'm not quick to call. But a kid locally here died because mommy decided to take a nap in the middle of the day. The other two were removed. Apparantly a regular behavior in that house. The little girl was severely neglected. Didn't even know what to do with herself not being strapped ina high chair all day. It was really sad to watch her. yet also inspiring. Everything was a brand new experience. Kinda like a 9mo old baby. Just report and let them investigate. Better safe...

Have you tried to talk to the mom directly? Visit inside the apartment? I would try to do that first before reporting this. You aren't worried about her being in immediate danger, so I would see about talking to her. I think one conversation could really give you the push you need to leave it be, get them connected to community resources if needed, or to report it. You could ask the little girl over for another sleepover and use the opportunity to tell the mom you'd like to come in and meet with her when you pick the little girl up. I understand that I'm in the minority, and I am not discouraging you from calling if you think you should. Sometimes those vibes we get just can't be described. Follow your gut. With the information in this thread, I just wanted to give my perspective on another way of handling it that I think would be compassionate and wouldn't exclude reporting, but if you do so, it will be with greater information.

Not necessarily :( The situation in my school involves a mom who does not have the- umm, mental capabilities- to stay clean herself. She is dirty; her clothes are always filthy. She smells of urine herself. Her kids get sent home from school because they smell so badly, but she sends them back quickly, unbathed, with a new change of clothes. Her kids are still coming to school dirty, even after DYFS was called last week. She is simply unable to attend to their personal hygiene, or the kids rule the roost in that house and refuse to bath. Its just sad.

I'm not so worried about the dirty ness or what have you... Rather the lack of supervision and involvement. Leading to many known unfortunate events that happen due to no parental figures being around. I normally agree to speak with parents first.

Ironically, I just got a call from the school nurse saying that MY child (not the one who wets the bed!) had to go to the nurse's office to change her pants because the kids said she smelled! Smelled? Of what? Cinnamon toast that she had for breakfast? Who knows, maybe she didn't wipe herself well and had an odor because of that. Just so ironic considering this conversation.