Birthmother Expenses

Again, Thank You. I find it interesting to correlate the information you were provided with the information we were given. I think agencies should stand on their record, warts and all. It's the only way PAPs can really evaluate them. So I don't find your criticisms of your agency bashing at all. They did some thing well and should be praised, but they failed at other things. At the agencies where we experienced our failed adoptions we were charged for all counseling services. The base charge was for six hours at $150 per hour. If the emom needed more counseling services, it was charged at the senior counseling rate of $350 for as many hours as it took. We got charged for 18 hours or $5100. We support counseling, but wonder about the differing rates and wildly different times. And we lost all that money when the adoption failed and almost the same amount when the second adoption failed. Questions about costs associated with counseling were not well received by either agency. We found out you cannot ask questions about what was discussed in those counseling sessions and why the counseling did not revel falsehoods in emon's information, etc. You cannot ask about the differing rates for counselors or the qualification of the counselors. It was a very frustrating experience. One of the adoption agencies offered this service as well. If the emon requested this service it was billed to the PAPs escrow account as well. I was concerned that the rates quoted were higher than our state's foster care program. I really don't understand this part. We had to pay upfront the emom's estimated medical costs just in case medicare did not pick us her medical bill. ($10,000 for vaginal birth versus $12,000 for C-section) And the adoption agency gave us a really hard time refunding these monies when the adoption failed. So exactly why you had to pay out of pocket your $2200 medical insurance deductible I really don't understand. I don't know what to think about sliding scale fees for PAPs. The courts in PA has decided that they are a form of baby selling and the legislature has outlawed that practice. Additionally, two couples in my local adoption support group have experiences where the PAPs who pay lower fees experience lower level of service to the point they are passed over, or their profiles are not shown as often as PAPs who have paid higher agency fees. So is this sour grapes, I'm not sure, especially when the state of PA has outlawed them. I believe my adoption agencies offered these types of services as well, but always at an additional fee. I don't see many adoptive families taking advantage of these services considering the cost of adoption. Like you, I wish I had know then what I know now. I still struggle to know what are the right questions to ask. I definitely wish I had all the invoices and supporting materials before we entered into contracts with some of these adoption agencies. They would have generated a ton more questions than the glossy brochures we got when they were trying to sign us up as adoptive parents. I also hate that everything about our adoptions has boiled down to money and costs. All we hear from the adoption agencies is that we are doing this for the best interests of the children, but when the rubber hits the road and invoices are generated, the story does not seem to match their marketing.:grr:

So my agency as far as I know charged one fee to the aparents, and that was the amount paid for a placement, they were not expected to pay any more even if a match failed but rather just stayed on the list until they received a placement. Once the match was placed with a couple they were expected to provide an attorney for all the final paperwork. That (as far as I know) is the only additional expense. I don't know the type of counseling the emoms received at your agency, did you know if it was third party? I would hope since you were paying for it separately, that it was at least third party. For me it was through the agency. That meant although it was considered counseling, it wasn't really confidential, it was as much a fact finding mission about me, about the birth father and about my situation as anything else, most of the information went into a file that the aparents SW had access to. But at the time I didn't feel that, I only felt like I was being supported no matter the decision I made. But I would say verifying counseling is third party (the counselor is not employed by the agency) is a big thing, especially if you're paying for it. On that note, after placement I had a run in with my son's bfather that didn't go great. I needed someone to talk to and went into my SW for the post placement counseling they had promised me. When I got there I found out that she had already talked to my son's aparent's SW about the situation. I decided at that point if I needed any more counseling I'd prefer to find a neutral source. To make a long story longer, my agencies policy was to not directly pay for any expenses including medical. They also didn't pass on any expenses to the aparents. They felt this would make the emom feel obligations or coercion. Instead the way they dealt with expenses was to provide emoms access to a foundation which would give grants to emoms. Basically people donated to this foundation, and they had money they could give to emoms, but these grants were capped at $800. If my expenses were just transportation, maternity clothes and extra food it would have covered them, but given I had medical bills and missed wages, it was not enough. Since I had insurance so wasn't on medicaid, but my insurance cost a lot out of pocket, I was a unique case for them. In the end (after placement when my bills started coming in) I started making a lot of noise because of my frustration and they decided to cover my basic medical expenses, but this cost was not passed on to the aparents, it was taken from their operating costs. My lost wages were never covered and I was only told to file for disability (but not told how to do that, my Dr. was the person who walked me through it). The 30 day newborn care was a basic service, nothing extra. The truth is the caretakers did so on a volunteer basis, I believe they were given supplies of diapers, clothes, formula, etc, from the agency, and the agency had a peditrician on site that the newborns would see, but the caretakers didn't take any money for doing it. The cost for supplies was folded into the basic fee for the aparents, and every bmom was encouraged to do it for at least a few days if not more. In fact I was the first case in over a year that did a direct placement (it was a fight to get them to do a direct placement). Again, I'm not sure if they ever charge for the post placement counseling for adoptees, but I do know that my son just went in for an appointment with an occupational therapist which was free of charge, they just saw how he was developing. I guess they offer that once a year the first two years, as well as play groups and support groups. As of right now they don't offer support groups for bmoms, but I'm working really hard to change that ;) I do know my agency had one book they showed everyone, so the idea that different PAP wouldn't be shown as often depending on how much they paid I don't think is true (the one exception was special needs or high risk births). They are a non-profit agency, which is why they said they didn't pay expenses. It also means they can do fundraising, which apparently offsets adoption costs for PAP. My agency also restricted the number of PAP they accepted at any time to help keep the wait time for placement down. In the end my agency worked for me, my son has an amazing family, my medical bills (finally) were paid, and although my pregnancy did cost me some money, it is what it is and as long as my son is doing well I will deal with it. I just hate that I had to fight for some of the things I did. And even more I hate that some of the aparents coming out of my agency have NO CLUE how the agency works, they naively think bmothers have all expenses covered.

Jumping in here......but wanting to say this: We refused to pay birthparent expenses. I'll admit that in the end, when viewing last minute paperwork, I believe we did end up paying a few hundred dollars (something like maybe $300-$500) for expenses to a birthmom in one situation; but we'd never go over that amount. Nor would we ever put large sums of money up front (another one of my pet-peeves), because this just doesn't ring right to me/us....even if we'd HAD a lot more $$ to pay out. Obviously then, I don't like the idea of paying for birthparent expenses. I get that there are exceptions to this, but overall, it's a system that's been used FAR too much...by agencies/attorneys AND birthparents to the point that NOW, this technique is expected from PAPS. I think it can lead (very much) to an aire of coercion to both parties. Not good. IMO, IF we want agencies/attorneys/unscupulous birthparents to stop this tactic, then PAPS will simply have to put their foot down and refuse to pay this type of fee, period. I understand there are those couples who'll feel/say that some situations may be passed by; but the main reason fees are what they are---is because someone---somewhere---is game to pay them. And just because they'll 'pay them' certainly seems 'buying the baby' is a very real practice today. :( (A rose by any other name is STILL a rose, KWIM?) Let me go so far as to say this too: IF adoptions were only conducted as a 'The baby will only be considered for adoption AFTER s/he is born and the birthparents have had counseling---post-birth---and can only sign relinquishment papers---post-birth'.....then it's my opinion there'd be fewer situations where $$ would be expected to support anyone; and more sound decisions to place (either way) would be promoted. With support $$ out of the way, I believe a clearer consideration can be done in whether to place or not. Jumping off the soapbox...but hoping this helps.... Sincerely, Linny

I'm truly on the fence about bparent expenses. I think there are situations where they apply, but it should not be expected. The expectation for paid expenses just opens gigantic cans of worms, IMO. Racilious- I read in one of your pp that you said pregnancy is down right expensive and that you agree that paying expenses before birth can lead to misuse of the system, but that you feel that money should go into an escrow account so if the emom places she'll have her expenses paid. But, pregnancy is always expensive whether a woman chooses to parent or chooses adoption. For the sake of argument I guess (I don't want this to sound like an attack at all I'm just truly curious) why should expenses be paid out to a woman who places when young or single women who choose to parent have zero relief (if they don't qualify for gov assistance)? If you never chose adoption, you still would have been out of work for the same amount of time and had the same expenses plus some, with the same salary. So what then?

Just to play devil's advocate, why should adoptive parents not have to pay pregnancy-related expenses, when they would have to if they were having a child? I think a GREAT solution would be (please don't jump on me for this) health insurance reform. If PAP's insurance covered the medical similarly to the way they would if it were the PAP who was prengant, that would be a much more equitable situation. I see a difference between someone who is placing for adoption paying all those expenses and someone who is parenting doing the same, because there is another person (or people) involved in the equation who have responsibility as well. I still prefer the model where the agency pays whatever expenses are needed and the fee is what the fee is. I know it makes the fees higher (and I'm single working in social services, so I don't have a lot of disposable income), but I believe in everyone getting what they need, and I do think I have responsibility to the birthmother of my child (when that happens) to make sure she - and the fetus - are cared for both physically and emotionally.

Ruth, You've brought up a point that I've mentioned more than once over the years! Health reform for adoptive couples. In my state, all insurance companies are required to pay (at least a portion, some the majority of the costs) for IVF treatments! I've actually inquired on more than one occasion 'why for IVF, and not for adoption expenses when the bmom actually places her baby for adoption?' I never get anywhere. And, truly, I've actually had some people (even adoptive parents) scold me for thinking such a thing! As I stated in my post, I think paying expenses is ridiculous. I don't believe in it as a blanket policy. I realize there are always exceptions; and the time when we DID pay a few hundred dollars, we didn't realize it was part of the expense to adopt our baby until we had papers in front of us. Nonetheless, if adoptive parents were reimbursed in the same way my state reimburses those undergoing IVF, my heavens......what a difference it could/would make! And truly, it seems in my years of adopting......those 'bmom expenses' are often not hospital/medical expenses....but rent, utilities, car payments, food, personal items...........and that's something I have a problem with....but that's me. Sincerely, Linny

I keep coming back to this post today and trying to write a response,but work has gotten the better of me and I keep getting interrupted. But everytime I've started a response, it's been different because it's a tough question you ask, for several reasons. For me saying someone who choses to parent doesn't deserve relief isn't quite how I feel. I think our system in the US sort of sucks. The fact we have no paid maternity leave annoys me, and the state of health care is also pretty bad. I honestly wish our government supported women who make the choice to continue their pregnancy whether they parent or place, but for many, they don't. What I don't believe is that PAP should be the ones to give a mother who chooses to parent that relief. It shouldn't be their financial responsibility just because they were picked out of a book. What I do think is a birthmom should not have to suffer financially for a having a child and choosing to place the child. Honestly I've gone through a lot because I chose to place, misconceptions by outsiders, some cruel things have been said to me about my choice to place, plus I have suffered a lot of emotional pain, there is a grief that goes with placement that is more than I could have ever imagined. I would go through any and all of that ten times over because I know right now my son is happy and healthy and that's why I did it. But to lose money on top of all that, well that just seems unfair to me. I have HUGE EMPATHY for PAP who end up paying expenses for a child that they didn't get to take home, because IMO basically I had the same thing happen to me. My only point in all this is I think there needs to be reform that is fair for both sides, and I don't think having someone pay medical bills and resulting lost wages for the birth of a child they then don't parent, regardless if you're a PAP or a birthmother, seems fair. I don't think those expenses should be covered either, but I do believe that lost wages should be reimbursed. I sat negotiating with my doctor during my pregnancy about how much she was asking me to cut back at work not because I wanted to work more hours but because I couldn't afford not to work (she started at working 16 days a week, I started at keeping up my 50 hours a week, we ended at 32 hours a week to her dismay). If the difference in salary was covered - even if I didn't receive the money until after I placed - I think it would have been better for both me and my son. I wouldn't have been so stressed out, I would have been able to actually follow my Dr. recommendations, and I wouldn't have had to spend 6 months digging myself out of the hold caused by my missed wages. I know lost wages was something my agency had no desire to hear anything about, but it was my reality.

I also find myself coming back to this post and contemplating both sides of the debate.... I am going to get totally lynched here but bear with me..... I would rather pay small reasonable amounts to a birthmom for medical, maternity clothing, etc than all the random filing fees and legal expenses.....Especially if it helps another good person to get back on their feet after the physical and emotional turmoil of giving birth and potentially placing their child. We are by no means wealthy, but the night my son was born, I told DH that if our bmom decided to parent, I would like to pack up some of the clothing, etc. we had bought for him and give them to her so she could start out with a little something.... I don't want to encourage baby selling but for those of us blessed with enough to keep our houses warm and our bellies full, isn't it ok to help someone who might be needing a little financial assistance at the time? ok, let the lynching begin.... I have thin skin so please be kind ;)

No lynching here. I completely agree that reasonable birth mother expenses should be paid. Medical costs, lost wages, transportation to dr appt, etc. My problem is with the rent/utilities/cell phone/car payment birthmother expenses that I am seeing. Especially because there is no protection for PAPs. And the thing is, I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, PAPs should be reimbursed if the bmom decides to parent. On the other, the bmom shouldn't be pressured into not parenting because they don't have the money to reimburse the PAPs. It is a problem with no easy answer.

Here's where I'm at though.......IF pre-birth matching was done away with...OR, if the PAPs chose to pay for expenses and that money was put in some account NOT to be dispersed UNTIL the bmom had chosen to release for adoption.........most of the fraudulent stuff would be done away with, it seems to me. This business of paying for VISA bills, paying for food, paying for thus and such to the point that THOUSANDS of dollars are GIVEN to someone who THINKS they're going to place???? Tell me, don't these techniques give way to possible coercion???? I can't imagine that some bmom would feel pressured to release for adoption based on the fact that 'these people have paid SO much for me'!?!?!? It sure seems that way to me... And for those who's say, 'Well, if that $$ was put in an account, only to be released IF adoption took place, it might look like baby-selling!!!!!." I say, 'What's the difference?" If someone feels compelled to give food, clothing, items for baby to someone because they're pg and can't afford much (or anything).....to me, their efforts should go to their local crisis pregnancy center (or group similar to that....and before someone says something, I DO KNOW of non-coercive places like that.) But there's an aire of pressure to giving someone ANYTHING like that--NOT just because they're pregnant----but because *you're* hoping they're going to release that baby TO YOU (and by *you* I"m talking about anyone...not the poster I quoted.) Finally, I think I feel this way because I've read in places where a pregnant woman wanted $$ to pay for her VISA bill. I"ve also known of situations where a bmom called an agency saying, "I want to know how much $$ I can get for this!"...and when the agency refused to tack on expenses for any PAPs, the emom stated, "Well! I'll just go to (other agency) because I KNOW they'll get more money for me!" That's the kind of environment that's too often set up....and I blame agencies, first and foremost, because THEY'RE the ones who suggest this kind of set up to emoms AND PAPs. Secondly then, I blame PAPs who cave in and pay the $$, only to complain if the emom didn't release her baby for adoption, SWIM? Bottom line: IF someone's going to pay for this kind of stuff, don't complain; and don't go into it with the expectation this pregnant woman will release her baby to them. Now, I don't mean to offend anyone who's been down the failed situations road.....but having seen this type of practice too long, I personally caution ANYONE NOT to pay for expenses, period. Jumping off of the soapbox now..... Sincerely, Linny

I'd like to know what agency Linny used that didn't require bmom fees, and how long it took you to be matched and placed. Please PM me with this info as we're still trying to decide on an agency, and all the ones that seem to match/place quickly require bmom fees (and excessive ones at that).

I think you're the second person to ask 'what agency didn't require you to pay bmom expenses'. It wasn't that the agency didn't require us to pay...it was that we refused to pay (with the exception of the few hundred I spoke about---which we didn't even know was a point until we signed the final paperwork). Further, we personally wouldn't work with any agency that required us to pay a flat fee for bmom expenses; nor, an agency that insisted we had to pay them. We told agencies/attorneys up front that 'we will only go for situations where we will have to pay no bmom expenses...or....only a few hundred dollars." (And by few hundred, I'm talking about 500-600....that's it.) We also told them we preferred 'already born babies'.....and so, weren't even shown for situations that weren't even born yet. Did we have to wait long? Well....the longest we ever waited was 18mos...but that was more because we wanted only a girl at that time. We actually turned down a boy situation; and......one situation turned out to be a lying bmom who said the father of the baby was a one night stand. He wasn't. (We actually lost $360 in legal fees for that one....which is nothing compared to what many PAPS lose now.) As far as agencies....I'll be glad to send my list of suggestions. But I'll warn you too....I'm in the process of updating that list. Additionally, understand that our family was very open to drug/ and some alcohol use....and many special needs. I have one child that's actually been found to be special needs. I can't stress enough that PAPs need to network, network, network. Do the networking that some pay facilitators to do. It CAN Be done. It takes a lot of time, I'll grant that to anyone. It's like s second job in some ways. But, if you're wanting a child, IMO, networking is where it's at. You also have to take the stand that this is YOUR money.....don't hesitate to say, 'No thanks, we'll wait." Because I tell you....while fees are outstandingly, ridiculously high, some of us (meaning, some of the adoptive parents I know and talk to) believe the fees are skyrocketing---in part----because people are paying them. Please let me know if you'd like my 'non-updated' suggestion list. Please also know that if you're looking for that healthy white baby.....*I* know you're wait will be longer, because that's an arena we never wanted to be in. But, I still know it's possible to adopt without paying for ridiculous bmom fees. Sincerely, Linny

Linny, Please do send me that list. My beloved and are just totally stunned by the amount of money these agencies are just expecting us to fork over without any real, in-depth answers as to what it will be used for. We're not opposed to paying some fees - especially those associated with pre-natal care, however one of the agencies listed 'entertainment' as a part of the bmom's entitlement. Frankly, my beloved and I do w/o cable, don't go to many movies, eat out occasionally, grow most of our own food (we have a small farm and good sized garden), strictly limit the amount we spend on Christmas, birthday, anniversaries, and vacations so we can save up the money needed for this adoption. This is literally a one time shot for us. And many of the agencies want us to put $10k immediately upon match in an escrow account, controlled and distributed by the agency, with the understanding that if the bmom fees are more than that we have to pay up, and if they're LESS than that we forfeit whatever is leftover. And we're not allowed to request invoices as to what/where that money was distributed to. The thought of paying for someone elses entertainment, or worse yet, credit card bills just outrages me, and it has seriously made me wonder if adopting is really what I want to do. It took us 7 years of hard work to dig ourselves out of nearly $100k in debt....I'm not about to fork over our hard earned cash so some irresponsible bmom can go out and buy a new Coach bag whenever she feels like it. I don't even do that!!! Sorry to vent here...can you see I'm really burned up about this??? Adoption has been in my heart and mind since I found out at 14 that I'd never be able to have children of my own, but it's taken my beloved 13 years to get to the point where he'll even consider it. Now that he is, we're finding out that in many cases its a huge money making scheme that leaves both the PAPs and the bmoms at a loss. And honestly, that doesn't sit well with me.Okay, thanks for letting me vent this.Britt~

Is this list still available?

If we had not paid our son's bmom's rent she would have continued living in the very unsafe situation she was in, which to be honest wasn't safe for a non-pregnant woman, but before she got pregnant she was only putting herself at risk. She did not have the personal resources to change this without social worker help (or perhaps family help, but her family felt they had done enough already). So, we thought it was appropriate that we pay her rent.