PTSD Sexual Abuse,ODD

kids at home are much different from those you have taught. shoot, i have a bio kid with ADHD, bipolar and ODD==the fks i've had with the same issues are waaaaayyyyy different. worse? maybe--but they don't have the emotional connection my son has even when he's at his worst. and his worst was downright awful. the others are right--they will be on their best behavior. they will not let the difficult sides show until they are in your home. and trust us--the difficult sides are very, very bad when they show up. truly, love is sometimes not enough. neither is stability, emotional investment, trust, medication, money, good doctors, excellent therapy and a host of other things when the illness and abuse is so deep. from your description of their history, i find myself bristling. abused in "every" foster home? really? where was dps? how many moves? how long in care? what was the reason for original removal? when did their illnesses manifest? what's been done? are you willing to quit working to manage their issues? to fight allegations? to deal with their traumas? how about your primary love relationship? how strong is it? having mentally ill kids can end relationships. i've been married to ToolMan for 30 years and it stresses us out! our youngest son has RAD--mild--that put our teeth on edge for a couple of years. he's getting better--most of the time you just have a normal 8 yr old. but just because he did it is not a guarantee that other kids will do it. it's tough managing mental illnesses. can you do it? maybe. should you do it? i don't know. that's a decision only you can make. but i can tell you that even though i have a kid with bipolar and another with RAD, i would not deliberately choose to parent another. think long and hard about this. we are not trying to rain on your parade. we are speaking from our experiences.

Thank you for your honesty. What kinds of behaviors do you witness when your kids are at their worst? What is it like with your older one?

Some of the behaviors I saw in my daughter (and she did NOT have the background these boys do) were lots of lying, manipulation, sexual acting out (as in lots and lots of sex with strange MEN), running away, some theft, aggression (I had her arrested for assaulting me when she was 14), skipping school, emotional outbursts that included crying and screaming for hours, self mutilation (cutting, self-piercing tongue, belly, lip, ears), attaching to friends that were just as unhealthy, drug use......and my daughter wouldn't be considered as bad as some, mostly because she had some attachment issues but not full blown! In a healthy state my daughter is amazing - incredibly artistic, very intelligent (all advanced courses), compassionate, loving and so, so funny. In an unhealthy state (which was 80-90% of the past five years) she was an ongoing nightmare of when was I going to get a call from the police to pick up her body. Do I regret adopting her now? No, but there were certainly times I did! Now, I congratulate myself for seeing the amazing young woman under all the pain and mental illness, but there were times I thought she'd break me and, may I reiterate, she did NOT have the background of the two boys you are describing. One thing I think I did right was to foster first. This gave me not only the opportunity to hone my parenting skills with traumatized children, but also gave me a chance to ensure I adopted children that I was a good fit for. I now have two adopted children and have two more that are likely to go to adoption, at which point I will need to stop. There is pain in having to let go of children, but also joy and pride in knowing that I have made a difference that will last a lifetime for even the youngest infant. I am so sorry to hear of how dfps has treated the situation, but am not surprised. Their goals can be amazingly short-sighted, placing children NOW without thought to the disaster they could be creating in the near future.

Let me answer your first question because I think this is what you are hoping for. You I have seen kids with all those diagnoses at once. I would go so far to say, it is typical of older kids who have been in care for a while to have that many diagnoses in their file. Typical for a foster kid that age would be to have those diagnoses in their file from a quick eval by a new therapist/ER/RTC/Psych hospital. But typical is for them to have been diagnosed by someone who did not have much long term exposure to the kids. So you very well might find a file that looks like this that is a total exaggeration. I have represented 3 kids with files like that who really have nothing wrong with them. That said, when you combine a file that looks like that on the psych front with the history you told us, I would say it is more likely than not that these boys have serious emotional damage. If the SW will not let you talk with the current Theraputic Foster Parents BEFORE you meet the children, you really should say no. SW is not just being difficult, she is hiding something from you. If the theraputic foster parents have been at this for a while and you can sit down with them and have a real conversation, I think you will get a very accurate picture of whether you can parent these kids. And if you have to say no to these kids, there are plenty of children out there in this age range that have normal amounts of fostercare and abuse and neglect behaviors and damage. My best guess from what you posted is that these kiddos are more than you intend to take on.

Wanted to say thank you to all who invested time in this post. You have all helped me tremedously. I requested additional paperwork including notes from a psych eval and diacharge papers from therapy home and was hit with another major bomb...recent evidence of indecent exposure to women as well as documented aggression, AWOL incidents with property damage resulting as wel as major aggression issues and a much more severe history of sex abuse. Dyfs didnt tell me this until I dug for it and today I confronted the CW and she stated it was not relevant becuase it was old news...last year! Oh well, thanks to all of your help as I would not have dug deeper if you didnt prompt me. I am going to rethink my age range to something more managable as well as someone who I think I could help heal.

First timer...I am an old timer. You can find a "few" of my posts out here. Many people have posted excellent responses. You have asked very good questions. Don't worry about case workers not being honest. Very few of them are. Adopting an older child is kind like buying a used car. I know, terrible analogy, but very comparable. The case worker is the used car salesman. They say they are focused on the child's best interest. That is not always true. I read through all of your posts. If I were you, I would pass on these two boys. The more you dig, the more you find. The issues stated are concerning to me, and I've adopted 10 sons. I've dealt with most, if not all of the issues you list for these two. There is a child out there for you...just keep looking.

FirstTimer, I've nothing to add to what everyone has said. I realize this must be a very difficult decision for you to make. Indy, as usual, is right. There is the right child for you, and whether that is these two or another is something only you can decide.Whatever your decision, some child(ren) will be getting a great family. All of your questions, all of your research and all of your soul searching will greatly benefit some child(ren) who needs you - exactly you and who you feel you can help.Let us know how your journey progresses and best wishes to you.

The problem with dx's is that some of them mimic each other. It's a matter of you being able to put in alot of time and energy. I would ask about the abuse. As far as the dx's: B, came home at 6. DX'd at age 8 with ADHD, ODD, Conduct Disorder, Mood disorder and adjustment disorder. Aggressive, cursing, just not a likeable kid. Saw 3 specialists. Not one picked up on the anxiety. I put him in trauma therapy and put him on anti-anxiety meds and he's a completely different kid. Not saying you'll have the same outcome. Just saying, you need to ask how these dx's are shown. If possible, talk to teachers they've had.

I have said no to these boys and am rethinking my age range. My spouse's take on it is to wait till one of can cut down to part time work and then wait for as close to newborn as possible. This would be a long time. I know even then there is no guarentee of issues but I think this case has shown me that i need to at least try to avoid as much as possible because Id rahter have no children than have a slew of drxs. our new concer. is these boys were removes at age three approx. and first placement said within the year they were severly acting out sexually....a lifeling issue they have yet to overcome. I suppose newborn is the only safe way. I think a two year old could stilll harm my animals etc. What do you guys think is the safest age range?

sorry, but there is no "safe" age range. even newborns may have been exposed to drugs and alcohol and domestic violence in utero. what there is is a calculated risk. you figure out what you believe you can handle and then look for that situation. i'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer--just Realistic Rita. i have 2 kids who came to me in a very interesting state at 2 and 4. the 4 had RAD, the 2 was completely detached. now? wonderful kids with all kinds of personality and potential. my friend adopted a heroin addicted baby who has all kinds of empathy and understanding and is the most obedient 18 month old i've ever heard of. then there are the kids who exhibited RAD or ODD from the cradle. really? it's a crap shoot--not unlike having bio kids. but with bonus issues. i'm not fully convinced that nurture has nothing to do with it--i'm more in the camp that says if you can catch them at the right emotional moment that they can make progress. that's tricky at best. but it can happen. i have 2 kids who prove it.

I had a five year old with no "issues". She RU with parents. I would have adopted her in a heartbeat. I had a sibling group ages 2 & 4 with attachment issues. They were very challenging. All my other foster kids were 2 or younger. None had any unusual problems.

Hi KatI am thinking the age range you dicussed might be more comfortable for me as well. If you sont mind me asking, how do you balance working with having the toung kids in foster care? My concern is not getting sleep at night due to their age and then of course, My spouse and I are full time teachers. Would love to hear any advice you have.

I recommend having a great babysitter that watches kids in her home. Apryl was my rock. She took kids with no warning. I had a baby girl who was scalded from waist down. After 3 weeks, I had to go back to work. Apryl was awesome with her. I couldn't have left that baby with anyone else. She loved Angel and he loved being at her house. When he died, she grieved with me. You have to have someone who will watch a child with the sniffles. Will take a child with 'issues'- physical, developmental..etc. And somebody who shares your views on parenting so the child can have the same structure in both homes.Without an awesome sitter, you will miss a lot of work trying to set up daycare each time you get a child. Daycare centers won't hold a spot.I never had problems at night. I guess I was really fortunate. They all slept well. Newborns were harder because you have to get up. But I didn't have any kids who got up at night.Edited to add: having a great employer who gave time off with little warning really helped. Find out if you can request a substitute for a week or so when a placement comes. Definately apply for FMLA.

I am sure I cant miss work for a foster placement..adoption allows me to use maternity leave but the initial foster placement would not...I think thats my big concern. Staying up all night with a little one and working the next day. I know dyfs said they will find daycare but Im sure that it wil be in the city and far from my home,but it is nice that they will help with that.

I think you did the best thing by passing on these two boys. My oldest are bio twin boys. At that age, they became very difficult and one would almost always come to the other's defense when being disciplined. So two close together hitting puberty I think is a very tough situation for most parents. Then there's the issues. Most kids in that age range will probably not have that severe issues, but it wouldn't be really unusual. Think about all the crap you see your students deal with, that you KNOW about, and know that there are kids out there dealing with much worse. It takes a LOT to help hurting kids heal. Some won't. Some CAN'T. Some actually Do just need the right mama to come along and love them and they'll be ok. A couple of thoughts I had... The boys got in your heart very easily, but they weren't to be your sons. Maybe this was NOT because they were MEANT to be your sons, but because it's important for you to pray for them, for their healing, for the right family for them. Some kids have no one to care, much less pray. Second, these boys got you asking a whole slew of questions of others, and of yourself.. thinking about what you can handle. Your eyes have been opened further, and you are now more educated. Going down to newborn age will not give you any guarantees. It stops you from having fear of your child being abused, and the consequences of that, but that's about it. It doesn't take much functional brain for a little baby to seem like a healthy, neurotypical child, when in fact there could be tremendous brain damage, or brain "wiring". There is much to be said for prenatal exposures and genetics as well. And that goes for ALL babies, including those whose parents planned their pregnancies, ate perfectly, had prenatal care, easy births, etc. There just IS much that can't be predicted with any child, including a baby. If I were starting my journey, with what I know now... I'd want to minimize my risks for extreme behavior while safely maximizing the likelihood of being given kids to adopt. I wouldn't go down to newborn age only. I wouldn't take a couple of pubertal kids with severe issues. I would consider anything in between, including sibling goups. I would expect most older than toddlers to have some sort of inappropriate sexual behavior or exposure to behavior, knowing even some infants get sexually abused. I would be prepared to talk about EVERYTHING, including sexual behavior & boundaries, with every one of my children. I would not assume ANYTHING. Caseworkers often don't know everything, & they may well gloss over things. They may be wishful thinking about kids they love, and they may lie. Some foster parents lie. Some shouldn't be parenting, including therapeutic FP's. Those get paid far better, so people just in it for the money would prefer THAT monthly check. Some foster parents ADORE their FK, but just can't adopt, but may not know everything you'd like to know either. I would talk to every possible person I could involved in the child's life, incl. teachers, all foster parents, day care, & anyone else. I would read extensively on RAD, Fetal alcohol or ARND, sensory disorders. I would find out who your "helpers" in your area are. What kind of therapists are in your area? There are strong opinions of both sides of attachment therapy, what do you believe would be best... What are your beliefs regarding psych medication... Is your home close to facilities you may need, or will you have to travel substantially to obtain services... can you handle parenting a child who may never be able to handle independent living... I STILL don't have thorough histories on my four adopted or one step child, though I've had them for years. The one who had the scariest history(I was warned he had no conscience by his FP--a PSYCHOLOGIST, & another FP who said he'd probably kill us in our sleep) has healed dramatically and become a tremendous joy to me. The one "everybody" was in love with, considered incredibly precious, and a joy to teachers, caregivers, former foster parents, has been the hardest and may require spending his life in a facility. My AD, age 5 when first home, now turning ten, is amazing and precious and loving and was the fiestiest, street-smart, sassiest little thing ever, years ago. I was her EIGHTH mama. The honest truth is, you just can't know what the future will hold for any child. But keep doing your homework and preparing, and know there are so many kids who need a loving mom who can meet them where they are and help them achieve all that is in their ability to be, and PLEASE don't get discouraged!