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Note: I posted same question in Psych Disorders category...
My angry, contradictory, mean, snotty, constantly eye-rolling 14-yr-old has driven us batty for the past 8 years. Yes, she's a teen and many are this way, but she has ALWAYS been this way! (Just add rageful and perpetual thief to her earlier years.) She's the middle of 3 sibs, went into foster care (due to neglect, likely fasd) at age 4, we adopted her at age 6. So been with us 8 years.
And despite years of attachment therapy, bringing her home to homeschool to lessen the anxiety and try to help her attach, she's still such an angry, contradictory kid. Even her bio sibs are tired of it. And when confronted about her constant sour attitude (she can't keep friends because of it), she claims she understands HOW she's pushing everyone away ("cuz I'm mean to everyone") and at times will cry and tell us she doesn't know WHY she behaves this way and seems remorseful (but moments later will roll her eyes when I suggest some gentler ways to handle whatever set her off earlier).
It's as if all of her self-loathing has turned outward and she attacks others, seeing herself as the victim. (And yes, I get that she WAS the victim of circumstance. I'm talking more specifically now.) For example, she was admonished tonight for complaining about sharing a (hotel) bed with her sister since sis "has cooties, and I don't want her getting her nasty cooties on me...she's gross"...etc., etc. Instead of, "my poor sis has warts on her toe" (securely bandaged so as not to infect 14-yr-old) "and I feel bad for her. That must really stink." Nope, cuz it's all about her. She has absolutely no empathy. I believe this is attachment-related, showing her lack of development of a conscious. She's still in the "I want, so I'll take if Mom and Dad aren't looking" phase, and not yet in the "I want it, but I know it's wrong to steal and I'd feel bad" stage. (Most kids are there by 11 or 12 and she's already 14.)
Mine is also avoidant in attachment therapy. She folds her arms and glares at the therapist. We tried EMDR, but with no luck because my kiddo didn't WANT to do it. (Said it's "for babies.") We did mom-daughter journaling, suggested by therapist since she was refusing to talk in therapy. But I have to talk for her ("maybe you were feeling X when this happened so you did Y. Could that be it?") Her responses are always "I don't know" followed by "Will you buy me...?"
Or "I want Xxx" (usually some outrageous item she knows we won't get her--likely an easy excuse to be mad at us or as a way to push us further away.)
Mine has no identity of her own--she's a follower. Whatever is trendy at the moment she wants, and complains that we love her sibs better because we won't buy it for her. (We don't get it for them, either.) She has complained (in front of sibs) that she wishes she was an only child, that they embarrass and tick her off daily. Today she called us all (Mom, Dad, 15-yr-old, and 12-yr-old) "useless" because SHE couldn't figure out how to turn the shower on and dad wouldn't let younger sister show her how, that "she's old enough, she needs to start doing stuff for herself."
That's another endearing quality--Dad secretly refers to her as his "child of least resistance," meaning she'll avoid doing anything she can. She "hates" doing schoolwork, bringing her own laundry down, putting her own dishes in the dishwasher, brushing her own teeth, walking her dog. every request is met with a huff or long drawn out sigh, rolling of eyes, and stomping of feet. And yes, we do make her "try again" until she can respond in a respectful manner. on the days she just can't get it, we "let" her rest in her room while the "pizazz" happens downstairs with the rest of the family. She will eventually join us and try to hold the attitude in check, but she's never truly remorseful and often apologizes with an eye-roll and thru gritted teeth.
And she's the contrarian...when everyone is cold, she insists the car windows be rolled down. When we're hot, she wants the heat on. We go to a pizza place, she pouts and makes everyone miserable because she wanted fried chicken. We make chicken at home, she rolls her eyes and complains that we never take her out for pizza. Ugh....It's absolutely exhausting!!!
The only time this child EVER laughs or smiles is when someone is either getting hurt or embarrassed! If you're familiar with the Snickers commercial where the actor is acting all pouty and diva-like, that's our cherub...having a "Snickers moment." And she has 10-15 of those a day, every stinking day!!! Sometimes food helps, but not always.
I know I NEED to pull her in close and do the necessary attachment work, but after 8 years of this I'm so frustrated with her! What could possibly make a kid so angry and spiteful that she could live this way, day in and day out, for 8 years?!
I get that neglect and foster care can really damage kids. I get that. And we had all 3 in attachment therapy from the get-go. But our youngest attached fairly quickly, and our oldest started to when we got the fasd diagnosis and started changing our expectations of her and helping her to process things. But this one refuses to participate in attachment therapy (ANY kind of therapy), yet when we talk with her when she's calm, she admits that behaving this way and pushing everyone away truly isn't any fun, that she doesn't know WHY she does it, and that she would much rather be happier.
So does this sound like depression? Or is it simply due to lack of attachment? I'm wondering if an anti-depressant could help relax her enough so that she could begin to do the attachment work without that fear/anger response throwing up the walls???
Yes, I can ask her pediatrician (who knows nothing about attachment disorder) or her AT (who can't prescribe meds), or her older sis' former psychiatrist (who RXed the Concerta for ADHD that older sis likely didn't need anyway since she's no longer on it. She just needed a different teaching style.)
Just not sure what to do to help. She's such an angry, mean kid that I don't have the stamina to try attachment therapy again unless either she or I can do something to take the edge off! I'd take up drinking, but I'd just fall asleep and be of no use to anyone! :evilgrin:
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My kiddo also has nightmares. In the beginning, they involved her dad and I being brutally murdered by "bad guys," leaving her and sibs alone (fear of abandonment). Those were nightly. Those eventually lessened to weekly (but instead of us dying, it was her getting killed by bad guys or sharks/snakes/polar bears because we weren't there to save her.) And now they're about monthly (she's still the one dying, but it's because I killed her!? Or as in her last one, a giant snake ate her, and Dad and I chatted happily at her funeral while everyone else cried--"you didn't even care!")
These nightmares generally come after we've corrected her for negative behaviors or said no to something. So her subconscious is even seeing herself as "unlovable." So I'm still wondering if this is attachment disorder compounded by depression and fasd/low average IQ. (Poor kid has a lot of cards stacked against her.) :(
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I do see the attachment stuff but it also looks like depression to me. (I have a similar situation with my AD who is 8, though it looks like she might be turning a corner). I do think anti-depressants could help if she is willing to take them. You might work out some kind of rewrad system to get her to take them initially (a few weeks maybe) until you can see if it changes anything.
My reasoning is that your AD has attachment issues but is clearly miserable and knows that she is messing things up. Maybe if the antidepressants lift her up a bit, she could start the attachment work and cooperate more. You might consider antidepressants for you too. I had to take them for a few months when things were bad for us. It helped give me the stamina to keep going when all my AD's behavior told me to just go away and give up. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
Funny thing, I recently had bloodwork done and found I was low in magnesium, iron, and vitamin B12---all necessary for energy! Then add a kid who keeps me on my toes, it's no wonder I'm dreading the attachment work. Not sure I'm ready to start my own anti-depressant, but will keep it in back pocket. I've heard from other parents of AD kids that it has helped them, so could be worth trying. Going to give the vit/min supplements another month or two first.Now I just need to find a better attachment therapist. Our last really worried about my AD's future (given her anger), but just couldn't seem to break thru to her. ???
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Dickons, she never worked through any trauma in therapy because she refused to talk (so therapist talked FOR her. Not sure how much that helped). And she claims she doesn't remember much--was nearly 4 when she entered foster care tho, so surely she has some memories. Plus the foster experience was all structure and little nurturing from what we saw on pre-adoption visits. Raven, she did get the fASD (fae) diagnosis at age 12, so that does explain alot of her behaviors and academic struggle, low ave IQ, etc. But older sis (15) has it, too (worse cognitive deficits), but she isn't mean and angry like 14-yr-old. In fact older sis is goofy, loud, hyper, gets along with everybody (and also lies/tells grandiose stories nearly everytime she speaks!) middle child "gets" rules, older one doesn't and cries everytime she breaks one and gets a consequence, as if she's just hearing the rule for the first time. (That's apparently classic FASD behavior PluS could be the shame response of attachment disorder.)....But also, it was a genetics dr who diagnosed them. She just explained that they did indeed meet criteria for diagnosis and explained the further chromosome analysis that showed all 3 kiddos had extra chromosomes in some areas and not enough in others, but that the "clinical significance is unknown at this time." Very UNuseful experience with that dr, but we're hanging on to the results so tht as new research is done, we may eventually have answers. So at the least I'm hoping to find a local FASD and Attachment disorder support group to see about finding resources. I've checked ATTACh and other sites, and the nearest AT is about 3 hours from us. (Want to find one who uses Morshak Interaction Method for diagnosis rather than just the parent survey. Want someone to SEE her behavior behind mirrored wall and be able to make accurate treatment plan like we had for oldest child. (That AT didn't take insurance, so we can't afford to return to him for 2nd child.) sorry, I'm rambling now. Thanks for both your ideas!ETA: Dickons, I think trauma is a huge part of it, but I KNoW she has no attachment to me because I have none to her. I love her and I fear for her future, but I don't "like" her simply because of the way she treats me and everyone around her. If she was attached, she wouldn't work so hard to push us away.
whoownsthis
ETA: Dickons, I think trauma is a huge part of it, but I KNoW she has no attachment to me because I have none to her. I love her and I fear for her future, but I don't "like" her simply because of the way she treats me and everyone around her. If she was attached, she wouldn't work so hard to push us away.
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Eek, Susieloo! Nail on the head (ODD)...except for the part about refusing to follow instructions/authority. Mine will DO whatever we've instructed...eventually, but she won't be happy about it and will make sure everyone knows it! :hissy: And when she's mad and I try to hug her, I get the elbow to the ribs. Or a lean down to kiss her goodnight (when she's not happy), and she'll meet my cheekbone with a knuckle! (She doesn't HIT me, but her fist is there covering her face so that I catch a bony knuckle right on the cheek.) Just tonight as I was calmly, but firmly talking about her recent behaviors and how it's up to her to push the pause button and think about how what she says and does hurts the people who care most about her, etc. Twice she growled for me to "Get out!" of her room. That's new. Usually she'll just say "whatever" or turn away from me, but tonight she was pretty worked up. I almost expected to see her head spin and for her to vomit pea soup! ;) I'll be putting the hallway motion sensor back on tonight!I know RAD and FAS (mine has FAE/ARND, not full FAS) behaviors can overlap, and I can guess that mine experienced trauma (at least the fear of being left alone for hours, maybe even days--they were malnourished when they entered care), and yes, she's somewhat ODD, but how do we know WHICH thing to treat?! She won't even go to therapy for RAD without first dealing with the anger (trauma?) or treating the depression (cuz I'm wondering if that's what it really is. Depression in teens can come out as anger, irritability). Maybe Dickons is right and we should find a local trauma specialist (PTSD?). Then when she's worked through her history, we can begin working on her future with attachment therapy again. :confused:
OK, here's a new one to add to the mix:The same angry kiddo we mentioned above who has the nightmares and is in a perpetual sour mood (we have NO pics of her smiling after 8 years!!!!) apparently also has major memory gaps!We passed a former therapist's office (the one who blamed me for my kids' behaviors and said RAD wasn't a real thing:mad: ), so I pointed it out and asked 14-yr-old what she did in those sessions, anyway. Kiddo acted like she had no idea who I was talking about. "The red head! Remember, she'd take you in and you'd draw or paint or play in the sand tray..." 14-yr-old said, "What?! No, I don't remember that!"And she seemed honest...very confused, like I might be making it up just to mess with her. And she saw that therapist for 1 whole year (age 7-8)! She came to us at 6.1 (with the RAD diagnosis already) and started with this therapist at 7.2 until about 8.5. How on earth can she have NO memory of her or what she did there?! Her younger sib who was 5 at the time (now 12) recounted for her what the office looked like, what toys they had, that the therapist had sprained her arm and wore a blue sling for a while. (OMG. This one scares me how much she can remember!) Then older sis (now 15, then 8.5) reminded her about the Ned's Head toy (I remember this, too, now--oldest LOVED that toy), that the therapist's daughter was her receptionist and that she had "like 20 earrings in one ear!" And still my 14-yr-old says, "You guys are just making this up, cuz I don't remember any of that! I don't even remember a red-headed woman." (Then she huffed and looked out window, refusing to reminisce anymore with us.)Not sure if this is due to brain damage from FASD or maybe her faking having no memory (but these weren't traumatic things...she got to "play" in this therapy while therapist just took notes). She does have a few memories from foster care (ages 3.5-6.1), but none from birth home....except that bmom had a piercing on her lip. (Sure enough, I found bmom's pic online and she does have that piercing!) She also remembered that bmom had same hair texture and coloring as her (and not sibs), and she was right about that, too! So she does have SOME accurate memories, but solid chunks (1.3 years in therapy!) are missing. There have been other examples, but this one, discovered tonight, seemed pretty outrageous. It would be like me saying I don't remember my 2nd grade teacher. Or I don't remember having ever gone to 2nd grade. (I may be odd, but I have a few distinct memories from about 3 yrs and up. All related to fear/sadness or excitement/happiness-- something that triggered my brain to hold onto that memory. And certain smells trigger memories. My 14-yr-old never SEEMS to get triggered by smells/sounds other than campfire...which reminds her of our many camping adventures. ;) ...Even my dh,who has a horrible memory, remembers stabbing another kid's hand with his fork in 1st grade ("he was trying to take my cake!") and getting in trouble for it. He remembers most of his teachers from elementary. It just seems odd that my kiddo has no memory of a woman she saw every other week for over a year. Just odd. And troubling.EtA: Just remembered! This was her 2nd school year with us--the year she was stealing food from kids' lunch boxes and eating it in bathroom. That teacher eventually found a deskful of food wrappers and was shocked (despite our warning her at the start of the year). So some major survival/RAD behaviors and maybe post-traumatic stuff at the same time she was seeing the red-headed therapist. I'm wondering if these memory gaps point to PTSD, even though her trauma would have happened at a much younger age???
I have a lot of gaps in my memory. I don't remember anything about 1st grade except knowing that I went to 2 different schools and getting beat up by a girl with a rhinestone studded purse. Of course, this was the year my mom reclaimed me and took me to live with an abusive alcoholic.I have only a few memories from 2nd grade. And they are of playing with friends, the only memory involving family is traumatic. None from 3rd at all - only stories I've been told. A little from 4th grade, but not much from school, and only a few things from home but they could have been from 5th or 6th grade. Most of my memories from this time are from things outside of my house. I don't remember a single Christmas until 6th grade and then it's not Christmas morning I remember. It's a couple of gifts and the discussions about leaving. I had trauma, abandoned by my mom at 2, shuffled between family over the next 4 years, taken back by her into an abusive situation with an alcoholic, being adopted by that alcoholic, beaten, emotionally abused and eventually escaping. Most of my memories are from after we escaped.As for trauma and the effect on memory - many different things trigger those traumatic memories. Maybe the reason she doesn't remember the therapy is that it was triggering for her and therefore traumatic.I don't spend a lot of time in memory land - even remembering time from high school or college, or early adulthood. I'm very much a live in the moment kind of girl. I can remember things from those times, but I just don't wax nostalgic for the past. And I often struggle to remember specific times when friends bring them up. I can remember, but it's like I have to look through a filing cabinet and everyone else is doing an electronic search on their computer. Maybe that's because trauma damaged some of those pathways, maybe it's because I never wanted to remember so I didn't learn how to retrieve those memories. I'm not sure. So I guess my point is that for those of us who have been through trauma, and while I have abandonment issues I'm not RAD, memory can be a tempermental thing and very unreliable. People are often amazed at the gaps in my memory. We honestly have gaps, gaps that seem strange, gaps that seem implausible, gaps that are frustrating to us. Sometimes it's easier to just not enter the conversation when memory lane comes into play.
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One of my kids has memory gaps on things I would have thought they would remember. Especially early on in the family life with us. The survival mind is a very powerful thing, I must say.
It's very possible she really doesn't remember or if she does, she might associate it with trauma and doesn't want to remember the details. Or, she might be lying and just doesn't want to talk about it.
Just from reading what you've all been through the last 8 years, I'm wondering if you know any other moms who have been through this type of parenting? If not, I will pm you some suggestions. A support system is a MUST in my opinion.
No, Crick, unfortunately I haven't met anyone (at least locally) in the same situation. Know a few recent adopters, butstill in honeymoon period or their kids seem to trigger mine (esp my middle).Just learned today (my delayed 15-yr-old confided in the recent adoptee who has already beencaught ina few lies--so this is suspect) that my middle RADish has been "blackmailing" her older sis for over a year! So that each time 14-yr-old is mean/breaks rule and 15-yr-old tells her to stop or she'll tell Mom, RADish threatensto tattle on her year-ago infraction (I'm guessing it was letting loose 1 or more f-bombs because she got ahold of a ayoung adultbook I should have previewed first. And w/FASD, she mimics cussing and other inappropriate behaviors the way a 7-yr-old boy might.)So yes, Crick, I would love to meet some supportive moms who can offer me suggestions. I KNOW my child won't heal w/o effective therapy, but I can't find any she's willing to do! She might do neurofeedback, but too expensive (nearly $5,000!) and a 2-hr drive. Might do emdr if I can findsomeonegood atit. Her last AT was brand new at it. Could'nt get kiddo to talk thru it. Wondering if I should try a $300 Audio Visual Entrainment glasses thing to get herto a place where shecanrelax enoughto be willing to talk and work witha therapist. She NEEDS a true AT, but none near us. Closest is 4 hours and not coveredby our ins. :(