Culture question

Okay, let me again repeat what I am trying to convey, and apparently not doing such a great job. 1. AAVE is a linguistically recognized dialect. This is not my opinion, it is supported by the field of linguistics, most notably by the African American scholar John Rickford. I had asked before that if there was a contrary view in the linguistic field I would like it sourced for my own education. I have sourced my information, and expect the same courtesy instead of simply being flamed. 2. My son is not "picking this up from his peer group" (his peers are only 2 years old and can barely speak themselves for heavens sake), but he is learning it from hearing the day care staff speak. 3. I am not trying to teach my son AAVE to fit in; I haven't a clue as to how to speak it, even if I wanted to. My research simply points out that there is abundant evidence that indicates when AAVE is accepted as a parallel dialect to compare with standard English, children overwhelmingly learn standard English better and faster. In other words, shame based teaching isn't such a great way to teach (what a suprise.) I know my son is going to speak standard English because he lives with me. I just don't happen to think its a crime if he learns AAV along the way, and that there are probably some advantages to it. If he learns/uses it fine. If he doesn't, fine. The only reason I brought it up is because the options I have are: a)correct him when he does it, b) don't correct him, c) pull him out of the day care he is in and put him in one where he is exposed to standard English only. So again, if you don't have sources then we will simply have to agree to disagree.

One thing about trans-racial adoption is this; one theory or opinion does not equal AA culture, or any another minorities culture. The Ebonics theory was refuted by many Blacks because we know better than to push the overall recognition of improper speech if we want to succeed, and decrease the ingrained negative views of Blacks period. Blacks deal with negative views most of their lives. I hope you do realize that certain debates are best left among the Black community. The same way I teach my kids to respect other races/cultures ie; do not call the person Chinese, if you do not know which country they are from, please use Asian. Respect the reasons behind what is being relayed to you; this will be considered disrespectful if you speak this theory among the AA population. I provided a link in my original post.

I'm white, from the OC which grew it's linguistic roots, from "The Valley" OMYGOD! TOTALLY, NO WAY, That's so RADACAJZH....are expressions of elation.While, during my up bringing it was imparative to know these words...each culture of rising agst ridded teens create an entirely new set of words and phrases that comprise their very own speech. However, that being said....all of my black friends speak beautifully, with perfect grammar, some are writers as I am and can definitely toss around the slang. But we speak like adults, when we are not goofing off.My child will be taught to speak with proper English and I will correct her if proper English is not being used in our home as any mother would correct their child for using improper English...because it is our job to support the education of our children.While Ebonics may be a registered dialect, all of my friends (I guess I should say black friends, but I absolutly hate saying...my black friend, my Asian friend...blah blah blah, they're just friends) are very far removed from a culture where Ebonics (like any other regional dialect) is used, and as it is not the mainstream dialect, a parent should endorse proper English in the home. HOWEVER....if your child (and mine) adopts a childhood, community, peer group inspired slang to fit in and be so uber "phat", "Fo schizzle baby," "it's all drip". It should be a way of bonding with their peers and not a regular mode of speech. Either way we're probably gonna need an updated dictionary.

Marcav, what I don't think you understand is that just because some guy did research and made up something called ebonics does mean all AA people agree with it. Now I can see if your child was in a school where ebonics was being taught, your assumption that he is learning "ebonics" would not have been so offensive. When I am at home or talking with friends I have been known to say, "Where's it at?" I'm a middle class white girl. It is the fact that you assumed he is speaking ebonics because you assume he got that phrase from a black person. Not all black people speak ebonics. I tend to disagree with the whole ebonics theory but let's just put that aside. I agree with the rest of the folks who say that if you are a middle class person who is educated your child should not be learning poor grammar (in your eyes ebonics.) It's important to speak proper english and then when your child is a teenager he can pick up slang like very other child of any color in the country. You mentioned having many black friends and coworkers. I'm wondering why you have not asked them these questions? Have they not been able to help you with this?

marcav, I'm not trying to flame you but I really don't understand what kind of sources you think are better then some of the ones you're getting here from educated and intelligent black women with children. By saying this I certainly don't mean to discount anyone else's opinion here. I like to think of myself as one as well, and I can tell you without a doubt that I am teaching my daugher to speak only proper English the same way my parents taught me and my siblings. If my dd slips with the grammar, I correct her every time. As a matter of fact when she used to say "where is it at?" (as I think most kids do regardless of race when they are learning to speak) my response would be "there is no at and it's right after the is" meaning whatever she is looking for is after the 'is' because a word must always follow. I don't understand why you're pulling out this research that shows by some accounts that it is an acceptable dialect in today's society. One can find research to support just about any position these days so to me personally that proves very little. Let's just say for arguments sake that it is "acceptable" by some. I'd still rather my daughter speak and learn the language that is accepted at Havard, the boardroom, and beyond KWIM? Nothing less. In regards to #3 - If the assumption of a learned and accepted parallel dialect is to help learn proper English better and faster why is this not so for white children? That in itself is insulting. The conclusion has been made by someone that somehow my intelligent and beautiful daughter would speak better English and learn faster if we as black parents accepted broken English because our child is black. We should accept the type of English that will not open every door for her in this society, and that we are somehow "shaming" her by teaching her the proper way to speak. Not to compare them but she might pick ebonics up along the way the same way ALL people tend to pick stuff like slang and foul language up along the way, but the key is to know, and to be taught what is right and wrong and act accordingly. She's of course been exposed to people that don't speak proper English and has probably overheard mommy not speaking properly as well, but she's been exposed to people that smoke too, and I wouldn't encourage her to do that either. Exposure in and of itself is not an acceptable excuse for forming bad habits in my book either. I could go on here but to sum it up, my opinion is that you should just stick to teaching your child proper English and leave the other stuff alone.

Okay, fair enough, and I understand the political & cultural reasons behind that. One of the reasons I brought it up is for the very reason these things aren't discussed. I was not trying to be provocative, I was just trying to honestly understand why it is shame based. That being said, I will say no more.

Perhaps if you placed your views in another context, it would be a good platform for a conversation. I get the aspect, on being culturally competent, as in, what is the child's home/neighborhood environment. An urban child may not understand certain questions, because said child was not exposed to the particular subject, or item. It could be said for a child from a remote rural area too. That does not mean that improper speech should be viewed as a norm. If you are speaking about culturally competent teaching to children in urban areas, or even say the Appalachian communities, or children of recent immigrants, I think there are other ways to approach the children. Poverty, and class levels are issues/factors that affect all races. Otherwise, I find that theory is just that, but the application or in this case, discussing such views with varied people of color, is always best.

I'll add my two cents. My black as are my 4 sons. My oldest (who came from a group home) was sent to the principal's office last year. The principal commented on how well spoken he was. I correct my kids and I tell them: the first impression is the most important. which is also why my boys don't wear baggy pants, do rags (outside the house), or slanted caps. When people hear Ebonics, they think the person speaking it is ignorant. I'll do with when I'm with friends. But I know when I'm at work, it's only proper English.

I'm joining the debate late. I'm black, and I hear what marcav is saying. I grew up outside the US for most of my life, in a former British colony, so my accent and grammar are a result of that. I also studied Linguistics in college. AA English is a recognized dialect, with grammatical rules that are systematic and reproducible. Standard English (RP, if you will?) is considered optimal (as it should be). I would argue that that is the reason AA English is considered to be "bad English".

I'm CC. My husband is black, as are our adopted children. In speaking with my husband on the phone, people have assumed he is white. Why? Because he is "WELL SPOKEN"? So if we are well spoken, we are assumed to be white??? I'm appalled by that standard of thinking. We raise our children to get along in the world. Our neighborhood and their schools are very diverse. They will pick up their own ways as they grow but, in our home, proper English is a standard -- not a WHITE STANDARD, just the standard by which our family speaks. As inflamed as I am by the political "stuff" going on now, this is just one more conversation that inflames me. Why do CC folks continue to think "white is right" and deny that things have changed for black people in this country? Why do we continue to be so incredibly naive? Just my rant today. Take it or leave it. Josie

I don't know Ebonics from a hole in the wall, but I did see a segment of Bridezilla yesterday that was much like this discussion. The bride was an educated AA young woman living in Orlando, Florida. She was, in fact, a wedding planner herself. When she interacted with non-AA vendors, she was easily understood. However, when she talked with her family, friends, groom, and other AA's her speech was so changed that the program had to put subtitles on the screen! It was about as different from standard English as text-messaging is from standard writing. So maybe it was a conscious choice on her part to speak that way?

Did you watch the special Black in America? DH and I had this very same discussion. They chronicled a man with some college education who had a good job as a supervisor over 6 people when the company went under, and him trying to find another job. He would (as is the custom in this day and age) e-mail his very nice, experienced resume for jobs he was well qualified for to employers, and a lot of them called him in for an interview. He would dress in his nice suit and head out to interview with them. He was having a hard time getting hired and by the end of this portion of the special it was revealed that he took a part-time position at night stocking shelves. During the interview with him, he had a fairly strong inner city or stereotypical AA dialect. "He axed me questions"...I honestly think that many employers (and likely many in the general population) assume that all AA people talk "like that" and that type of dialect equals lack of education. In fact one of the things my step father likes to point out is that Tyler is not going to "talk like a black man"...Yes, he was immediately corrected at how racist that was! He means he won't have that dialect, so other AA will not accept him. I asked him if people that spoke like that were educated or uneducated...he said both, which was at least good, he doesn't associate that dialect with people that are not educated and was actually kind of upset that I was "trying to make him sound like he thought all AA people were dumb"...I wasn't trying to make him sound like he thought that, was just trying to make him realize he was stereotyping...and I wouldn't stand for it. I don't know where you are, but the AA people in our community for the most part, speak just like I do. I think closer to large cities with a higher population of AA people, there maybe more people with this dialect. People need to realize that the way someone talks, does not indicate how smart they are...it just indicated where they were raised usually! Unfortunatly many people do still judge a book by it's cover, and an educated AA man is as likely to get a second job interview as a CC man with a criminal record. Sad but true.

I left this forum because I felt that the dialogue was becoming too acrimonious. I did continue it with a black friend of mine and we had a very interesting discussion (yes Bethany, I actually do talk with people of other races :) ). She told me that neither she nor any of her friends spoke, or were raised in AV speaking households. She did say, however, that those friends of hers who came from less economically stratified communities (she is upper middle class and attended private schools) actually learned it and made the choice to engage in it with friends from their communities when they were older. I think that what we are actually talking about is class; and that people who are poor, working poor or in racially isolated communities tend to speak AV more frequently. She also relayed a story about a black social worker colleague of hers that only spoke AV, and was told by her white supervisor to "clean up" her language. Apparently this social worker had a great talent for motivational speaking, but this criticism did not help her speak standard english, it only served to make her self conscious and ashamed to speak in public. Should she learn SE? Probably, but I question the utility of framing it in a bad/good english context. My friend incidentally, was also as mystified as I was to the negative responses generated by this post.

I have known CC people who talk "slang" and they are often called "trailer trash" so its not just AA people who are looked upon negetively for speaking incorrect English.

Being AA, I had the same initial reaction to the post. I don't believe that "ebonics" is another form of speech. Proper English is proper English. I've lost count of how many times I've been told I sound "white" because I don't say things like "where is it at". That's not a compliment. As others have said, children will speak in the manner they've been taught. You are building a good foundation by correcting your son so he knows the proper way to speak. As soon as my son is old enough I will do the same. ;-)