It went well, but I didn't like the visit

Well, my opinion kind of flipped when I got to the end of your post and realized that her first father and your DH are brothers!! I think that brings a whole new family dynamic in, and one that the two of them are going to have to work out. I'm sorry that leaves you kind of on the fringes- the whole situation seems very uncomfortable, and up until I realized the kinship thing I was thinking that visits were perhaps a BAD idea and should be cut off altogether! How does you DH feel about this? What kind of a relationship did they have growing up? Your uncomfortable feelings certainly seem very valid to me.

lakin, honestly I might not have had any visits, ever, but I've read so much here and abstractly understand that seeing first father dry and acting normally could only be good for her...still, if it hadn't been her idea, I don't think I would have pushed it at all. And that part DID work out, she did say, "he has changed so much. He is like a different person." Well, I've known him 25 years so I don't see so much change deep down, but on the surface, yeah, big difference from what she knew. I hope she can internalize those positives in her sense of self. So, I know there is already good coming of it, even if it is hard. After I wrote, more and more I began to realize that although jealousy is in there, I think resentment is figuring larger. Resentment for the way he just walks right back in, pretty much off the hook. Again, not very generous of spirit, forgiving, what have you. It's just that our daughter will NEVER be off the hook for the things he's done. There are things she struggles with daily--and we struggle along with her, toxicity spreads--and probably always will, to some degree. He won't see it. Worse, I really don't think he cares. He is fully narcissistic as far as I can see and not a shred of empathy, either. It's not as if this is the first partnership and child he's messed up. And he doesn't acknowledge it or apologize to them, either, but they forgive him just the same. So there's that on my part. DH and he--large family, if you grouped the kids, they were in the last triad, first father being the big brother, DH the middle, his sis the youngest. FF was always confident, always intimidating, always totally sure. DH, also confident but quiet, nonconfrontational, etc. Their dad was a tyrant. First father went his own way. DH just stayed under the radar. Point is, as adults, DH steady, responsible, long-term dependable. FF trying to live fast and large, making a mess of things for the past nearly 30 years. Can't count the number of times this eternally "prodigal" son has come back into the graces of the family. Co-dependents R Us should be their last name. I don't see DH pushing any issues directly with anybody. That seems to be my job...He would more likely just withdraw. Read into that what you like, it is what it is. Groundrules--they were pretty good, I'll list them below. I don't know how you have a rule against the things that bothered me. I don't even know how to say it and I'm sure if I could it would come off as unreasonable. And it could well be that that is just how it worked out in the first visit. That if there is another one, it would be less one-on-one and more him visiting us, kwim? Later, after I posted, she did have some regressive behaviors and sexual/inappropriate acting out and difficulty settling into bedtime...we hadn't seen so much of those behaviors for a long time, so maybe coincidence, maybe not. I tend to think not. Over the weekend, she seemed especially keyed in to playing with dd and being "the good daughter" with DH and I, very helpful, very affectionate, etc. I am probably analyzing way too much. Anyway, thank you so much for letting me process this a bit with you. Here are the rules we sent and he agreed: [FONT=Arial]Ground Rules[/FONT] [FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]1.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Stay within my eyesight and earshot at all times. No whispering, no secrets, etc.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]2.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]If I say the visit is over, it is overno questioning, no discussion, no arguing.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]3.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]If [fd/ad] wants the visit to end, it is overחno questioning, no discussion, no arguing.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]4.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No alcohol.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]5.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No street drugs.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]6.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No narcotics of any kind, street or prescription.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]7.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No prescription drugs other than those prescribed specifically for you for actual medical/psychiatric reasons.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]8.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No cigarettes; [fd/ad] is asthmatic.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]9.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Please avoid providing her a lot of sugary snacks; we may have a treat, but both [fd/ad and dd] tend to get sugar high and cranky.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]10.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Refer to us as your momӔ and your dad,Ӕ to [dd1] and [dd2] as your sistersӔ; no references to Aunt xӔ or Uncle yӔ or cousin.Ӕ[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]11.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Remember in conversation that we are her parents, we do not just take care ofӔ her.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]12.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial][other half siblings] are also her sisters and brothers.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]13.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]You are either just [first name] or Uncle [first name]; fyi, [fd/ad] just says [first name]Ӕ and always has. We refer to you as [first name] or your first fatherӔ when that makes sense in the conversation.*[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]14.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial][first mother] is just [first name]; fyi, Naomi just says [first nameӔ and always has. We refer to her as [first name] or your first motherӔ when that makes sense in the conversation.*[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]15.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No bad mouthing or blaming of [first mother]. Acknowledging her illness is not bad mouthing as long as it is mentioned nonjudgmentally and compassionately.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]16.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]HomeӔ for [fd/ad] is [our home, our address]].[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]17.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No conversation about [fd/ad] ever coming to live with you or visit you on her own; if that subject comes up, you need to make it clear that her place is with her familyusחand that there is no back pocketӔ daddy or home with you. Do not say itӒs up to your mom (or dad). Be clear that she has a home and a family and they are here.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]18.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Do not bring up the subject of another visit. If [fd/ad] brings it up, it is of course OK to say youԒd like that and lets see how it works out but do not tell her OK or ғOK if its OK with your mom (or dad).Ҕ[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]19.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Do not bring up the subject of calling [fd/ad] on the phone. That will happen when and if she tells me, without prompting from you, that she wants it. If she brings it up, then of course you can say you would like that.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]20.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]Do not bring up the subject of [fd/ad] replying to your letters or e-mails or questioning her why she does not. If she brings it up, then of course you can say you would like that.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]21.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No talking through [fd/ad] to me or [dh].[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]22.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No blaming me or [dh] for the dissolution of your family.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]23.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No blaming me or [dh] for your lack of contact with [fd/ad].[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]24.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No questions about her therapy, her therapist, or any counseling she may/may not receive.[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]25.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]No identifying questions about her friends or community. That is, do not ask for last names or where people live.[/FONT][FONT=Arial]* Both first parents referred to themselves to her by their first names from birth through the entire time she lived with them. It was not until she was six years old, in care for the second time, that they made an issue of her calling them by first name and others by mom and dad. Out of the clear blue, they started scolding her for it and making an issue of it with social services.[/FONT]

Hadley, Based upon what you wrote, I don't blame you for being creeped out. I think, under these circumstances you groud rules are totally approriate. Think about thefact if this first father was no your BIL. how you would you react? Honestly, I think your soon to be AD is at a tough age for those kind of visits. Too many adult issues swiring above her head but she is able to absorb something.....

If you were creeped out there is probably a reason. I would keep an eye on things like you did. With FF being family you have a greater challenge then if he were not. In cases of abuse children are conflicted about their feelings. (Speaking from experience). If FD/AD looked uncomfortable with the physical contact you might consider adding rules about touching. If you add the rules and let her know that it made you feel un-comfortable she might feel better because she doesn't have to tell him "don't touch". When you take it out of her hands she isn't the bad guy... If there were behaviors that re-appeared I would be concerned. If FD/AD has a therapist she sees you might consider talking to the therapist and telling them what you saw/heard/felt about the visit.

I agree with this. If you saw even a hint of inappropriate acting out (before, during or after the visit), since you have no first-hand knowledge of abuse, she should really be able to talk to a counselor. That way IF there were anything to it, she could be protected. No one wants to believe that that could have happened, especially since FF is BIL. If he hasn't seen her since she was 6, now at 9 IF that were ever to have happened in the past, he would pick up like nothing ever happened. He could & would still manipulate her mind, and the fact that he walked off alone with her was enough time to "remind" her of their "special relationship" (which is a part of grooming children for sexual abuse). Perpertrators never grow out of it, don't get tired of it, and will continue beyond their victims' adulthood unless the child makes an "outcry" or some other person reports him, and IF there was abuse, she is not the only one. With all that said, I hope & pray that nothing of the sort has ever happened, but the only way to know for sure is to have her speak with a counselor. You are in the middle and not necessarily a "safe" person to tell. (Again with the grooming.) A trained counselor will see signs and hear things that we don't, and aren't emotionally tied to the child. It would kill us to know if that happened, and our reaction could be a negative reaction to the child. If she needs help, they make sure that she'll be able to get it. It she was abused and doesn't get help, her behavior will only escalate, and she could begin to abuse younger children. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but have friends whom this has personally happened to, and there was no one there standing in the gap. No one believed them, so there was no sense in telling. Still affects them in their adults lives. It's a sad reality. Check it out to be sure.

Well, there you go. It was actually my heart that was going "ewww" because, frankly, I don't and never have liked or trusted BIL although we have certainly gone above and beyond for him for the last 20 years--stubbornly detached and as non-co-dependently as possible. Which seems to come across to other family members as irrational or "mixed messages." Anway. So, knowing this about myself, I was feeling that my feelings were colored by this dislike. But maybe not. Thank you, all, for bringing that possibility to light with some good insights. We are going to move very slowly, if at all. No more until after finalization. In the meantime, a new issue: fd/ad's first mother is going to die today or tomorrow. Cirrhosis followed by cascading organ failure. It really is time to return to therapy (which she had weekly for the greater part of two and a half years here with us, and three years preceding that). Thank you again for helping me to think things through.

I'm sorry to read that first mom is "going to die today or tomorrow". You and your family are im my prayers.

Thank you, it is harder than I thought it would be. She is hanging in there, but kept alive by machine and deeply unconscious. Thank you for your kind thought.

Prayers going out for her & your family. It's hard to lose any parent, much less the one who gave you life, my deepest sympathies are with you and your fd/ad.

You may feel it is your heart that is driving your reaction, but often I find that the heart is reacting from information your brain is sending that it doesn't know how to communicate any other why. In other words, if you feel something is wrong, then there is a high possibility there is something wrong. It's ok to be protective. So sorry to hear about the impending loss of your DD's first Mom. I hope you will all find some peace.

Hadley2 - I'm so sorry to hear about the health of your daughter's first mom. Do you think that has anything to do with why your daughter wanting to see your BIL? While her first mom was still a viable connection it may not have been as important to her. After she passes the desire to see BIL may reduce and eventually go away as she process that even though her first mom has passed away she still has her forever family and doesn't need the connection she thought she needed. BIL or not I'd make it clear the touching stops if there are any further visits. Just from what you wrote it creeped me out. My A1 is about that age and if someone were touching her like that I'd be having a fit... and I have before. I once told a family member that although they were only playing that I felt it was inappropriate to touch/play with A1 in such a fashion. I'm trying to raise her to be a proper young lady and to set boundaries in her life. If I can't get her own "loving family" to follow those then how can I expect that she will demand that respect in the future with boys. There is a thread in the general forum where a parent was contacted via a letter that the first mom has terminal cancer and would like a visit. If you haven't already you might consider posting on how you've handled this as I believe your daughters are about the same age.

Hi, thank you for the ongoing support. Birthmother is still hanging on...sorry, I tend to find humor in even the darkest things and it sort of seems true to her spirit and just a touch amusing that even comatose and breathing by machine she seems to be wringing the last drop of drama possible out of the situation. Still, it is deeply sad. We are several hundred miles away and they haven't seen each other for over three years or talked on the phone for almost two--by the child's request and also because the woman is so unstable there is never any telling what she will say. I wouldn't want her last vision of her first mother to be of a bloated, unrecognizable body on a machine. I did her tell her she was very sick and deeply unconscious but might hear her and the ICU nurses and I put her on the phone. She told her that she loved her, hoped she got well, that she is happy, that her softball team won the night before and she made high honors. I wrote down what she said, dated it, and put it in her memory box. We also sent a card, which probably won't mean much, but it is a gesture that she can remember making. As for this visit, no, the crisis came up afterward, so that had nothing to do with it. First father was primary caregiver, though, when she lived with them. When she first joined our family, she wasn't even clear on who the first mother was to her even though they all lived together. When another child asked "who is x?" she looked confused and said that she thought she was [FF's name]'s girlfriend. She didn't, at that time, really have any real understanding of family. She thought children just moved from house to house and some kids called some of the grownups in the house "mom" and "dad." She didn't understand why her first foster parents' son didn't have to leave when she did. "Why does he get to stay?" she asked. And she was turning six at the time. It was through talking with us and visitation by phone that she established awareness of who this person was to her and actually developed a little bit of a relationship with her. She has always been reluctant, however, to have contact of any kind with either of her first parents until recently. Thank you again for your thoughts. I do not think we will be jumping into another visit very soon. There is a lot to process. If there are more, definitely some new rules are needed about separation behavior, touching, etc. Hard to regulate such subtle intimacy. To be fair, as a person who spent most of the last 12 years in blackouts, he may have no idea what he did or didn't do back then. Even so, I suspect the pathways in the brain and the self-justifications would still be there....

It's always such a shock to me to realize what they think is normal. At 14 my foster son asked me quite conversationally how many times my OWN kids had been in foster care! And because he believed his parents' lies about reasons, I remember him absolutely FREAKING OUT one day when my 7 year old walked home in cold weather with her coat unzipped because 'they put kids in foster care for that".

Hadley - just wanted to say I think you've gotten great advice, support and what not. Nothing to add other than I hope you continue to take care of yourself too while you work things out regarding this.:)

maybe shorter visits would work better...