your take on embryo "adoption"?

To me both methods are pretty much the same, the difference being avoiding the "possible" primal wound thing of being removed from your mother after birth. I know a lot of people don't go for this theory. To me it only makes sense that it would change the person in some way, they were there, it was their experience... even if open and information shared, there still could be a possibility of the whole genetic bewilderment concept. Which I believe affected me personally much more so than the primal wound. I say that becasue I was/am also Very concerned with other family members, and all my genetic generations for as far back as I can go. Anyones face will do if it is genetically linked to me LOL I wanna see all of em I can. It depends on the individual person and how much info they get. kwim? like if they were told about their origins, shown a picture and given stories about them and theirs, but never meet any genetic family, or never meet until they are adults.... the bewilderment when looking in the mirror would be there just the same. (for me anyway LOL) But yes, I think being able to keep your mother of birth after birth as your mother is better, even if she is not your genetic mother. So yes, that would take a bit of the sting out of it I think. I think I would still have the question of, and a parent would still get the question of "Why?" "why did this happen, why was I "given up" or whatever?" and i guess that answer could be different for each depending on the circumstances. So maybe it's a good idea to come up with a good healthy answer to that question as step one? Hang in there (((anilorak))) I know this must be tuff to discuss, yer doing good.:cheer:

vie been reading this thread in earnestand I seem to disagree with most of you on a crucial point: I don't really see embryo adoption and infant adoption as comparable. Perhaps because I am looking at this from a pro-choice standpoint. I believe that people who donate embryos are donating genetic material that, if implanted within a uterus, will ( hopefully) develop and be born. I guess I don't see children created in this way as being "adoptees". I think that donating ones embryos is something MUCH different than gestating, giving birth to, and then relinquishing ones own infant. I can imagine that these hypothetical future children might have some of the same feelings as an adopteeŅ.as in "why did my biological parents choose not to have me?" But, I, as an adoptee, must ask myself "why did my natural parents decide to have me, and then give me away?" Children born of embryo donations would not BE had it not been for the fact that they were first donated. Whether or not I was placed for adoption, I would still be a person living on this earth. I was born and then placed. They were "placed", and then born. Do I think that children born of embryo adoptions should just be quiet and grateful that someone implanted them? Of course not. But I think that embryo donation and "adoption" is more about donating the POSSIBILITY of a child to another couple. Not because embryo's aren't "alive" - of course they are. But It's one thing to check off the "donate" box when in a fertility clinic, and it's another to look your infant in the eyes and hand them over to someone else. One of my BIG hurdles in dealing with my adoption, especially when I was younger, was the "why wasn't I good enough" concept. Why did my parents give me away, and keep a child 2 years later? How could my mother have me, keep me for a few months, and still give me to another family? How could my grandparents and uncles and cousins have all gazed at meand still have exiled me from their midst? THIS is something that I do not believe embryo "adoptees" will ever have to contend with. It's the epitome of "not personal". While I know, logically, that my being placed for adoption had absolutely nothing to do with me as a person, when I was placed for adoption I WAS a person. I think there is a big difference to being "relinquished" on a cellular level, and being relinquished when you are a baby who has already been born. So no- I would not consider them adoptees, personally. Sure- technically they are children who are being raised by genetic strangers. Just like adoptees. But they are the result of a donated embryo- purposefully createdŅ.not the already born result of parents who didn't want to or couldn't raise them. What they consider themselves if their businessbut while I see the similarities between the two concepts, there seems to be an emotional element that is lacking. I also believe that it should be well documented, non anonymous, and the genetic parents must be willing to meet said child when the are 18, if the child desires.

Amandak249 - while I disagree with you on the pro-life side of things, everything else you said sounds right up my alley, as it were. I think you're right that they definitely can't be said to feel the same *type* of loss, or as many losses, as adoptees. I hope you all don't mind my thinking out loud here, in trying to gather the types of losses I understand adoptees face, and how most of them don't apply to those born from donor embryos. Feel free to add or comment on any of them: 1. separation from people who cared for them in some capacity (even if it's only during gestation) 2. separation from people they have memories of (older child adoption) 3. separation from their ethnic group (transracial adoption) 4. separation from their culture (most international and transracial domestic adoption) 5. separation from their nation (international adoption) 6. loss of their first language (older international) 7. loss of the woman who gave birth to you 8. loss of relationship with your genetic ancestors Losses for those born from donor embryos: 1. loss of relationship with your genetic ancestors 2. possible separation from their ethnic group 3. possible separation from what would've been their culture/nation/language

Thanks amanda I agree with the points you brought up so now I am confused again lol I've decided that seeing things like Frozen Embryo Adoption & Donation ProgramӔ and Embryo Adoption Ӗ One of the Newest Ways to Adopt! and ԓadoption homestudies and ԓplacing parents on the websites bugs me. The language bugs me. The sales pitches bug me. (I realize that there really isn't a different language for it, yet. and that the adoption language sounds "better" to those involved now, it worries me that it will stick and no new language will be set forth. It's sad tht I want to label anyone, but I am worried that the embryo transfered and born will be seen the same as either a traditional adoptee or possibly worse, a "naturally" born bio child, when they are neither.) why it bugs me- 1. It's not adoption 2. While I think it should be some type of documented ԓadoption or ԓother term similar to adoption, it's not legally adoption, or emotional adoption as we know it. 3. I agree with you Amanda that the process is definatley two different things, yet MAY result in a child being raised by non-genetic family after birth, similar to an adoptee, who will possibly deal with similar issues as an adoptee, plus some added issues that go with embryo donation/transfer/birth to a non-genetic mother. 4. I also agree that calling it adoption, especially when it is not, takes away from, or diminishes the loss in adoption where a mother must relinquish her born child by refering to it with the same term. It Can make ԓadoption sound like no big deal to many. And it's a very big deal, not that many people believe that so much... 5. I do believe that it is a big deal to loose your genetic parents, or even semi-loose your genetic family, a really big deal, especially if it can be done under the guise of adoption with no documentation, and most likely without your knowledge. 6. What is the current legal term? Donation and Transfer? If it were me, how would I say it? (I was adopted as an infant. I was raised by my adopted mother. I am an adoptee.) I was transferred as an embryo? I was raised by my non-genetic mother of birth. I am a _____? transferee? What if I, an over thinking sarcastic smart alec, at some point in my thinking process thought/said ԓI was a frozen hypothetical child, now I am a real boy Oh dear, I've gone Pinnochio, I should quit now. The themes in fairy tales and stories regarding loss of parents have always caught my attention in a big way. I cannot seem to get away from the sci-fi theme in this. And SO many books and movies about embryo created/transferred people have caught my attention lately. Which will not be easy for my embryo transferred friends to avoid either I think. These things could add to an imagination greatly, and they are everywhere. This bugs me: Want to Adopt Embryos?

Did you know that you can carry and give birth to your adopted baby? The ****** Embryo Adoption Program makes it possible for you to adopt embryos from couples who have completed their IVF treatments and have remaining embryos. These embryos are currently stored in fertility clinics and are waiting to be adopted into loving homes.

As an adoptive parent, you receive autobiographical information, medical health history, and pictures from the family whose embryos you adopt. You adopt all the embryos a family has, and the embryos are transported to your local fertility clinic. Your own doctor can perform the frozen embryo transfer, and you can finally hear the long-awaited words, "You're pregnant!"

Prior to being matched with the embryos you will ultimately adopt, you will have an adoption homestudy. You can read more about that process at our Adoption Homestudies page. If you live in Southern California or South Carolina, ******* will perform your adoption homstudy. For a list of agencies that perform embryo adoption homestudies in other states, take a look at this list (at the Embryo Adoption Awareness website).

Over 200 babies have been born through our ******* Embryo Adoption Program, and dozens of families are awaiting a loving couple to adopt their embryos. We invite you to read through our Fact Sheet (linked below) to learn more about our program, and we welcome your phone call to answer more questions or discuss your family's personal circumstances.

If you are interested in adopting multi-ethnic or non-Caucasian embryos, please take a look at our Multi-Ethnic Embryos page. If you are interested in adopting embryos with special considerations, please take a look at our *******Special Cases page. [url=http://www.placingparents.org/]PlacingParents.org[/url] a blog, interestingly similar, and interesting that these types of ԓplacing parents probably don't get the bad rep like placing mothers of birth often do, yet some seem to deal with many of the same emotional type issues, in a "lite" way. The adoption language is there too.

That 'wasn't I good enough' concept was a big hurdle for me too. "why did my natural parents decide to have me, and then give me away?" that question could change to (well, if it were me doing the questioning anyway LOL) why did my genetic parents create me on purpose, a hypothetical child, and then give me away? Were the others better than me, was I not good enough to keep, was there something wrong with me as an embryo, is there something wrong with them, is it all really just luck and chance? How could they plan and hope for me to be born, see me, know that I exist, want me to know my siblings but not be in the same family as them on purpose, say they care, say that I am their child too, that I really have two sets of parents, but not want me in their family too? Why would they let this happen, plan for this to happen before I was even born, possibly even before creating my embryo, choose for this to happen to ME, on purpose? I think I could take that personally as well, on a different level tho. I know I would take it personally if I found out later in life! Personally I hope they feel none of this crap, that it is not emotional at all, that it really is the epitome of not personal. but what one man, er woman can think of, another could think of too. arg I know some who were conceived with donor sperm take it personally at some point, and are very curious, and many hurt, annoyed and angry about it. I can only imagine that both sides being donated, especially if annon. would add to that for many. What do you think? I guess I am working in the realm of worst case senerio here, kwim?

I don't mind at all, I think all of us are thinking out loud here, and thinking out loud/brainstorming on behalf of others for the future! so no punches allowed.:) I don't think older child adoption and embryo transfer and birth can be compared really - unless of course you are trying to decide between the two as an awaiting parent. i think i would tend to think that my genetic family did care about me in some capacity, and still will once I am born into another family. Unless of course they are cold hearted non-caring people, which I doubt, but is possible. As an infant adopted person, or an embryo transferred person, it is possible to loose or be separated from all of those things depending on individual circumstances, the only one I see that would be different is separation from mother of birth. (basically what you said, i think LOL) :hippie:

I agree that it is "their" business as what to be called. I wish at least "one" would come tell me right now what "they" like, or don't like LOL But until then and unless the language changes it seems "they" are being called adopted embryos, embryo adoptees. I think I am thinking I could put up a fight against that term for "them" now. One reason being so when they do come around to talk about it all, "they" won't have to hear that "they" are still embryos. Like adoptees hear that they are still children, (and currenly still hear it)... ya know, I'm a 49 yr old adopted child. we don't make it past childhood, "they" may not even make it past the embronic stage. ug another reason being I'd love to have another term to refer to "them" now, other than them, those and they!

language is not genetic memory...in otherwords anyone can grow up to speak any language. Growing up with people who are not related to you is hard. you don't look like them, you don't act like them, people question the strength of your family bonds. You alwasy think about your "people." Adopted people are removed and displaced from where they are supposed to be. Most adoptees have a view into another time line....what if I grew up where I belonged?" Being born through someone else changes nothing...that is why sarrogates are used. How hard would it be knowing you 3 full siblings grew up with YOUR Mom and Dad but not you. The difference is that most infants who are available for adoption are accidental. To intentionally create and infant for adoption is wrong. Ask yourself would you concieve another child and carry it to term and give it away just to not "waste" an embryo. Or is it easier to give away a bunch of cells in a dish than a real baby your carried for 9 months. I always say if you think adoption is so wonderful why don't you have another kid so other childless couples can fulfil their parenting urge? It looks like this has become acceptible. Personally if I was going to adopt, I would adopt a child already on this earth...because being pregnant sucks. Try and use the bathroom in those first days after you give birth or tie your shoe in your 9th month.

What on earth are "special cases" embryos? I also agree that I don't really like adoptee used for embryos either. As pointed out by Amanda, they are twoo very different things. I did say I preferred it to donation mainly because it puts the recipient and donor in a mindset where they are more likely to want openness. If the word donor is used, the recipients are more like to see it just as random genetic material and want to keep it anonymous. However, I think another word would be better. Perhaps embryo impregnation? If sperm is insemination, perhaps inembryonation?

Thank you so much for your continued contributions. When I first posted, I expected adult adoptees to take issue with donor embryo-conceived being grouped together, precisely because the number and types of losses are so different. For the sake of my family, our kids, should they come to us via embryo donation, DH and I decided to use adoption terminology (for the most part) for the sake of clarity for the child. I certainly don't want to tell them that they were "frozen gametes" or something else that totally dehumanizes what is a unique human being, albeit at the earliest stages and not yet a baby. I also couldn't come up with a better way to explain the genetic family than in adoption terms. But I really like the "adoption 'lite'" take. I'm sure someone adopted at age 10 would likewise disagree that their loss is the same as that of someone placed for adoption as a newborn. I don't think the idea is to compare our losses and whoever has the most, wins. I have to say, in light of some of your comments, especially regarding the annonymous sperm/egg donor, I decided to start a thread on the fertility forum to get some conversation going there. And I am definitely coming across a lot of people who have never considered the child's perspective, and some who seem to continue to ignore it and figure that love will make it all ok. It's interesting that the "counseling" that is required for 3rd party reproduction doesn't really seem to do enough preparation of the parents from the point of view of the child. Our therapist, with whom we had to meet only once (luckily, we've had plenty of adoption training that is now bleeding over), claimed to be there "representing the interests of our future child" - she stressed the importance of disclosure, but that was pretty much it. Even she said that it was at our discretion. I agree that there should be legislature that protects a person's right to know their history, their identity, their biological/genetic roots. I know that this would definitely put a damper on a lot of couples going the annonymous donor route, but likewise plenty of aparents stay clear of openness in adoption... neither situation takes the child's best interest into consideration. So I hope if nothing else, you all do understand my intentions on this. I am neither saying that donor embryo-donceived people are like adoptees, nor am I saying that they're not. I think the final say belongs to them once they grow up and share their experiences and feelings. Until then, we can only do the best we can with what we've got. ETA - regarding the language, if you would've been raised by your original relatives, you'd speak the language they use, which may or may not be the same as the language of the family who raised you. In international adoption, language is most certainly one of the many losses the child goes through, especially if they were school-aged. I wasn't adopted, but I immigrated as a child, and even though my household maintained my native language, I still experiences loss of fluency and thus when I come in contact with other Poles who expect me to speak on the same level as they do, it makes me very self-conscious. I AM Polish, and to be Polish means to speak Polish. Without the language, the ethnicity looses its meaning for us (as I'm sure is the case for other so-called "White Ethnics"). So if I'm not 100% fluent in Polish, it makes me wonder just how Polish I really am. Ta-da! Loss of language --> identity crisis. :)

The birds and bees talk I do not envy anyone who gets to do this! And I think it is a very important thing for the embryo conceived, donor or not. And more goes with the talk in an out of the ordinary situation. I say that because I had difficulty with it all, sex, pregnacy, icky babies, the maternal, the paternal. i had little consideration or compassion for the mother child bond at all. Big deal. Now I know it was due to being relinquished/adopted, and that it is a very big deal. There wasn't much going on for me about love and sex, it was sex, biological and clinical and cold. pregnancy= bad. Everything maternal or female in a way, to me was icky for a long time, even after my first pregnacy it was still very icky and clinical. I felt like I wasn't part of it, the "normal", that it was different for me. hard to explain. I didn't think it all really mattered that much, something i didn't want any part of, i was cold to it, afraid of it, made me puke, creeped me out. yeah, hard to explain. I imagine some of that could come up in similar and additional ways. I guess in this case pregnacy wouldn't be seen as "bad", but it could seem... I dunno the word, I'll stick with clinical. So just a suggestion to put this "thing" on the list of things to consider for the future. At times I still tend to think that pregnacy is completely over-rated! I admit my bias. Now that I have been thru it, and thru great study have learned to know it differently, it is all so beautiful. I still can barely grasp the concept of wanting, wishing, planning to be pregnant. Maybe because it seemed to always be a mission in my life to Not get pregnant. LOL And to go thru it with a non-genetic child, wow, are you sure you know what you are getting into anilorak? Don't say we didn't warn ya! LOL :flower:

I don't know, and I didn't have the guts to go see! Did you? lol

Do people request a DNA test after the baby is born? Just to make sure everything is as intended, and that no mistakes were made and everyone is who you think they are? I would set that up in the beginning, if it were me, so we would have no doubts.

BethVA - lol, thanks for the warning, yes I know what I'm getting into. I hesitated at first too when I thought about having a "foreign" baby inside me, but then I thought, how is this different than adoptive breastfeeding? (yes, I know some people are very anti, and I don't want to get into that here). Or opening your home to a "stranger". This is either going to be my child or it isn't. Our donor actually told me that she had initially matched with a different recipient who ended up backing out precisely bc it grossed her out when she thought more about having a "stranger baby" growing inside her. For me, I had this thought when I was still resentful and grieving not having our mutual bio child. Once I accepted that, it hasn't been an issue. Every new person, every child, is a "stranger" until we get to know them. Regarding the pregnancy, I know what you mean that it may not be all it's cracked up to be. When I met my hubby, I told him "no, thank you" to kids precisely bc of this. Then I said, ok, we can adopt, bc I wanted kids but didn't want to go through the pregnancy/birth. Then I learned that I had been fed only one way of looking at it, very negative when in fact it has the potential to be something great. I may end up hating being preggo, but unless I experience it myself, I will always wonder.

Ya know, I didn't really think about the "foreign" baby concept much until I wrote my last post. I'm glad you have. I can tell you being pregnant with my first felt foreign and freaky. The second did too, but I sort of knew the routine by then. I wasn't real sure what my husband had put in there at times LOL but yes, I always knew it was a baby, not that nutso, I just questioned it occasionally LOL It did freak me out a bit tho, so maybe this feeling can be part natural. Whatever you do don't watch movies like Alien where a creature bursts out of someones stomach LOL That freaked me out for weeks LOL Was so glad to see a real baby come out of there! It's probably a good idea for pregnant women to avoid movies and TV completely, especially Lifetime! Stick with music for a while :) If there is one thing I have learned at a.com it's that -it's your baby when YOU think and believe it's your baby. Doesn't matter what others think. -an "adoptee"/"adoptee-lite, etc." will always have other parents/family out there, but can still be your baby/kid/family member. All this preggo talk, I had a nightmare in which the doc told me I was pregnant! I woke myself and my husband up when I sat up in bed and said loudly "OMG! I am NOT pregnant mister! You are full of it!" It was quite terrifying for both of us LOL Our son was horrified at the possibility. I am hoping our dreams about pregnancy are completely different. And when you are pregnant, avoid me, I have scary birth stories that I might share! I try not to, but sometimes someone wants to dream that it's all lovely and full of rainbows for everyone and my tales of pain and sheer horror slip out LOL Hey, maybe you will be one of those women who loves being pregnant and giving birth! I'll be wishing that for you. To me the most frightening part was what to do with the little critters once I got them home! And that isn't anywhere near as difficult or scary as teaching them to drive or moving their stuff into a college dorm. And I hear it can get more frightening from there, marriage, grandkids... I know I will be too full of worry if/when my daughter gets pregnant. She walks down the isle this spring, so kids could be in our near future. I'll try not to think about it yet LOL I've thought about it enough already to know that I will be a basket case. At least I get a handsome and sweet new son in-law out of the deal :)