How beneficial do you feel visits are when there is animosity?

Personally, I would just tell him that there will be no more contact. I found with one of my son's parents that it was kind of assumed that after adoption he'd still call the shots and could bend my rules they way he bent DSS' rules. So after 2 visits we're not doing more unless I heard of great changes.

I would be more in the category of giving it a shot -- sending him the list of "rules" before the visit and seeing how complaint he is. Address things like names people are to be referred to, topics of conversation, appropriate gifts etc At 3, one visit isn't going to do any damage and your son wont even remember it. If things go well -- you can consider future visits. If things go badly, you can tell your son you tried. I always remind adoptive parents to think AHEAD. Are your reasons now going to cut it with a 15 year old?

Jensboys, I'm curious, what would it take to "go badly" beyond already having used "hateful" words, getting "extremely angry" and not accepting two visits a year plus pictures. when this is someone who has already done what it takes to go to jail? Why wouldn't that already be an answer to a child that asks why didn't you maintain contact? 1) Your birth parent has a criminal history, 2) he wasn't prepared to accept your adoption 3) he used hateful words 4) he wouldn't accept the 2 visits a year and pictures offered but insisted on more.

Well I tend to be of the mindset that even if the grownups have a difficult time, they can still put the needs of the kids first (sometimes). They won't know unless he tried. If he was angry, upset and rude with them upon hearing the terms of the adoption -- that was a one time event. I think allowing for a visit, and seeing his behavior might be warranted. If the rules (and consequences) are clearly spelled out before hand, and one visit is not going to cause any permanent harm, then it is worth a try. All my kids bio parents have criminal pasts (and in some cases presents). They are all known (at times) to be rude, violent aggressive, difficult, addicted but have always, always treated me with respect and kindness. That doesn't mean I haven't had to be CLEAR with boundaries and expectations, but a little bit of respect CAN (possibly) go a long way. They won't know until they try. And, also, it can take some biological parents YEARS to come to terms with the reality of their losses, and what that really means to them, and their relationship with their children. In my experience, consistency with clear expectations, having a VERY short memory, and being unfailingly polite yet clear has worked out - for all of us, but especially the kids.

Back to OP (we won't solve the ongoing are OAs better than CAs debate) From my experience, initially, BPs of kids taken by the state often go through a denial stage (since its a stage of grieving, it makes sense). That misalignment of reality isn't something you can't fix. You can't help if they get frustrated, angry, and whiny. They need to learn to accept reality.. only they can do that work You can facilitate this by clearly, (and microscopically) define your boundaries. Refuse to budge, and don't react to their thrashing. I remember that period in our OA. It was stressful for DH and myself. That said, DD still got benefits out of seeing her mummy. I had to be very specific in what was permissible to discuss.. what would happen should those "bad" things be said (we supervised these visits) That was sufficient to have BM behave. In time, she accepted the situation. these days, things are great. I'm glad we worked through the initial difficult days Don't get me wrong.. had she not behaved appropriately in front of DD, I would have had no problem cutting contact. it sound like you're doing everything right. hang in there

Was this a one time event? Has he normally been friendly and kind to you? Birth parents can get upset and they may not react to things the way we may want them to. That doesn't always mean we should completely withdrawal or let them walk all over us. Taking a step back and looking at the situation is helpful. Like another post said most times birth paretns through fostercare go through a denial and anger stage as well as barganing. The important thing is to hold strong to your boundaries and discuss how you want to be treated within the relationship. You need to lay the ground work for future conversations and allow time for them to process their own feelings. If this birthfather has normally been very kind with you then I would kindly tell him that you did not appreciate being treated in the way he treated you and let him know that you are under no obligation to continue a relationship with him and what the rules are you are putting forth for him if he would like to have contact. If this was a one time thing and he learns from it great. If not, and you continue to have problems with him than absolutely do not continue to try and have a relationship with him. It's not worth it. As to your original question. NO. It is not beneficial to the child if the birth parents and adoptive parents have hostility between them. We have been in a situation that was difficult and has been difficult for years and years now. In some ways, when time are good I am very grateful for all the years we've put into making it work. But, when times are hard and their is still contention between us I begin wishing we had shut it all down years ago, when we had the chance, before we continually made them a part of our daughters life.

I also wanted to add that maybe you should tell him that it's not good for there to be animosity between the two of you and that you may need to take a step back and develope a kind and respectful relationship through letters/pictures, then maybe phone calls, before considering moving forward with visits. It will allow the time needed for him to process his own feelings and realize that he will have to work with you, not against you and support the adoption and you as the parents. There is no reason to bring someone into your life who does not respect and support you as the parents. I disagree with others who have said it won't hurt a 3 year old and they won't remember it. Children are most receptive to "feelings" and body language and you don't want to introduce someone into the childs life at this age (because they may very well remember). My dd was very receptive to the feelings and emotions during visits that both we as her adoptive family as well as her birthfamily had and continue to have. It hasn't always been a beneficial thing for her and against my hopes, it doesn't always get easier or better in time.

I wish that was true and I do know my DD is exceptional in many ways, but she vividly remembers negative contact with her birthmother from long ago.

Perhaps that has been the case with the families you've dealt with....but it is not ALWAYS true. This is the thing that just bothers me about the "open is always best" argument. The assumption is made that all adults are clear thinking, reasonable, well adjusted people concerned only with their child's well being. Even outside of the adoption world, this just isn't always so. For many different reasons, some involving mental health, others just because some folks are just plain jerks, some people put their own needs in front of their childrens---and that includes birth parents. Hopefully the OP will clarify, but my reading is that this isn't a one time, bad day but rather a building animosity. What basis do you have that one visit "is not going to cause any permanent harm"? I know what happened with my son after the first visit---he head butted a teacher at school and and much of the progress we'd made over the last few months evaporated. As have my son's parents treated me. They were always been polite and kind....even as the one parent even as he crossed the "no alcohol" boundary twice. But in the OP's case the parent isn't treating the parents with respect and kindness. Again, hopefully the OP will response....My reading is that she DID try and wasn't met with respect and kindness. She offered letters/photos and visits but was met with hostility.....what else was she to try exactly? Again, in concrete terms what does that mean? How many times do you need to be cussed out before enough is enough? 1? 10? 200? Is it only a threat of violence that would be the end or does the parent have to actually assault the adoptive parent first? At what concrete point is the line drawn before an adoptive parent can do what is best not only for the child but the adoptive parent as well? BTW, its not a OA vs CA issue. Its an "all or nothing" problem.

I think I was very clear in my statement that it is a possibility and sometimes things can work out, even if there is previous animosity. The reason we have our kids is because their parents are dysfunctional people. It seems silly to assume that suddenly they are going to know how to behave perfectly and with great maturity in one of life's most difficult situations just because we want them to. All I am saying to the original poster is that it might be worth a try. I have been cussed out by my kids biological parents, and I clearly respond that I will not be spoken to in that way and if they wish to talk to me again next time, I expect to be talked to without swearing etc. Quite honestly, in at least 3 of the 4 of my kids; bio parents (despite being close in age to me, and in one case older) they had never, ever been taught that sort of thing. I have had hundreds of visits cancelled, and I quit scheduling visits after a while and take things slowly. They don't know how to relate in a mature, respectful relationship because they have never had any. So I model it, teach it and demand it. For us, it works. My older sons are now 17 and 16. They have an incarcerated birth parent and a mentally ill birth parent. Contact over the years has NOT been easy, but I still believe over all it would have been FAR worse to have cut things off just because we have had rocky times. I know my boundaries, I know my kids' boundaries and I am firm and respectful. They have paid the highest price possible for their choices (losing their children) and it is not my job to be further punishment. My job is to provide my kids the knowledge of their background, facilitate a relationship with their biological parents if they want it, and ensure my kids have an honest understanding of the situation (not a fantasy). I do NOT hide from my kids (even the younger ones) when things are difficult with bio family. My four year old can explain that right now she doesn't visit with her birth mom "because she drinks too much wine and it makes her make choices that are not safe". Bio mom knows she cannot have a visit until she is sober, she respects that I make the decisions that keep the girls safe 100% of the time, but she knows she can text me anytime or call or let me know when she is sober. I will "forget" the times she hasn't been able to visit due to her addictions and our relationship stays positive. I don't see things as all or nothing -- I know that because things are bad in April 2010 that doesn't mean we can't have pleasant contact in April 2012, or because mom is upset today that doesn't mean she wont be pleasant next week. These relationships are marathons over the lives of our kids -- and they take time to build. Ultimatums rarely, if ever, work out. It's NOT easy. Heck no -- but I still honestly and truly think for my kids, and many kids, it can be the right thing to do. But you have to have the skills, the strength and the willingness to tough it out, and protect the kids along the way. If they truly think a visit my be difficult for their child, they can meet together before hand without the child present and see how dad handles it. The OP stated they had a very positive relationship in the past -- it is possible again.

I agree with Jensboys on this one. My 2 older ones had a relationship with their bm after the adoption until she let them down. My 2 youngest had bio mom cut off from last foster home and there have been major issues. I think some of the problems stem from this loss.

I have no idea what the right answer is for your specific situation, but I think that if I were in your shoes I would seek out the advice of a child psychologist who specializes in adoption issues. I think they might be very helpful, especially since experiences at three years old, even if they aren't remembered, can definitely have lasting effects.I agree with the spirit of some of these posts that suggest that ultimately the ability to have contact down the road is better than the loss of that ability. However, even if visits right now aren't advisable that ultimate relationship is still one you could work towards for the future.It doesn't sound like your situation is easy. I wish you the best of luck!!

Thank you all for the replies. My son came into foster care in 2009, and we adopted him in March 2011. Throughout that whole time, bd treated us with kindness and respect. We did bd's "goodbye" visit on our own with him in early 2011 b/c he didn't show up for the visit that the cw scheduled. We visited with him again in late May of last year, and the visit was great. We exchanged emails w/ pictures probably every month or two last year until he went back to prison. He was in prison from September last year until March of this year. Over last summer, he started to get more pushy with requesting pictures, but I didn't think anything of it. When I took my time sending them, he didn't complain. He so appropriate for all of last year. I was kind of blindsided by his demands and his attitude when he got out of prison a couple months ago. It's very unlike how he acted with us in the past. However, it is exactly like he acts with everyone else in his life. So I am wondering if he is just finished putting on a nice face for us.

You need to put everything into writing like a contract. Decide what you are comfortable with right now and leave the door open to expand later. From what you have said, Dad has issues with rules which landed him in prison. Knwoing that, you should explain in very clear terms that in order for him to gain a larger role in your sons life, Dad must abide by the rules of contract. I ofter suggest using the rules Jensboys gave about conversations, gifts, etc. What names cna be used, what behavior is ok or not. Sometimes people with anger issues actually don;t realize they have a problem with that. They don't know how to behave or interact with others(again see trip to prison) Keep everything about what is best for the child. Explain how his behavior is bad for the child so he understands that if he gets angry, yells, screams, denands, etc., that this is the type of behavior that causes your son to have his own problems and also, it is not the type of behvaior you will letyour child see. If after communicating with Dad about the rules, he is willing to try, then set a visit date far in advance(4-6 months). This gives him time to follow your rules and show you that he is willing to do what is necessary to get a visit. This also gives youtime to really find out if his behavior is likely to change. Navigating an open adoption is a long long road especially when the child is so young. Giving chances is one thing, but don't let Dad's behavior rule your life in any way.