Tired of Angry Origin Parents

Paigeturner - I want to start by saying that I've found your posts on this board to be well thought out and spoken truly and from a good place. However the part below strays quite a bit off center. I have never in my life targeted someone on this board and I find that statement offensive. Although I know of which whom you reference believe it or not this wasn't just about that person nor anyone else in general for that matter. Because I've only been on the boards again for a few days and you don't have tons of my recent history in which to judge I'm going to hold off my judgement because that the right thing to do and we've visited the same threads (because those are what I was interested in or felt I could contribute to) it doesn't mean I'm stalking someone and honestly I'm truly offended by your statement. Either way I've read lots of boards I didn't comment on and I've just noticed this general attitude towards the PAP and I must say it has taken a toll on my mood as of late. I came to these boards to help me keep my daughters families of origin front and center in my heart and to get a better understanding of their feelings and as funny as it seems after your statement. She (the stalked person) actually helped me through a lot of the hospital issues and I made decisions based on some of the great info she shared for the betterment of my daughters first mom. It seems like the first moms (not all of course) but tons on this forum are very bitter towards PAP. This board is for adoptive mother support and I feel just as the birth moms have their forum to rant I wanted us to have the ability to do so and would never attack someone on that thread. I'm not bothered by her posts I'm bothered that she has a situation that has brought her to that place. I'm also truly offended by the unethical things that happen in adoption. It truly amazes me how people think this post is about them. When it's actually about me. But thanks for reading and sharing anyway. All are welcome.

Bluebonnet your feelings in regards to this whole thing is similar to mine. I cant imagine some of the things I've read on this site. Wishing a first mom anything but healing and happiness is beyond inhuman. Wishing a PAP anything but an amazing open adoption is also inhuman and everyone's feelings should be considered the adoptee beyond all... You couldn't have said my thoughts any better! If you don't want to consider an adoptive family's feelings than don't bring them in to the mix until your ready to sign. Most of the mothers of origin also say that very thing and I'm glad; it's a learned lesson but at least the wisdom is being shared. However; once they're brought in their feelings ABSOLUTELY should be considered. As the family of origin brought them and their feelings in to the mix. I'm just fed up with all the bio hate and I couldn't agree more. We are shunned for word choices even when they come from a good place and we're called all sorts of things PAP for one bothers me; but its a freedom of speech thing and who am I to tell someone what they can and cant type. I'm just tired of everything I post being picked apart that it's some sort of personal attack. Like Paigeturner said in her post I cant help what some people read in to my words. Truer words couldn't be typed! But apparently it only applies to the one typing it. Blue I wish you a ton of positive vibes. I'm sure your situation is tough and I appreciate you speaking your like mind! C -

Bluebonnet_72, I love what you wrote. Absolutely awesome. I'll call the kettle black (being male and so not a mother), but wrking21 has a good point I've thought of myself many times: I, and so many of the other adoptive parents here, current and hopeful, would never dream of going onto the forums for birth parents or those who are adopted and inserting our opinions without being asked. Why is the reverse not true? Of course there are some who were multiple hats, and most have some valuable perspective to offer, but the responses here are telling. If you don't believe me, check out how often one of the first five responses in the general adoptive parent forum comes from someone who is not an adoptive parent. The first responders are often not the fellow adoptive parents the OP seeks support from. I think the willingness to jump forums comes from a basic lack of respect. Anyone can tell me and the world that they are full of respect for whoever, but if that's true, you're not doing a very good job at showing it. If you were, topics like this wouldn't exist. There is a pretense at education, but usually the question is not even answered, the agenda being the only topic worth considering. This is a terrible site for adoptive parents, and I only ever recommend it to those interested in foster care. I've learned a lot, despite the negativity, but it's not a road I would knowingly guide anyone down. I, too, have left and sought (and found) greener pastures that still have just as much insight and education. If this makes anyone angry, okay. I'm saying I don't feel respected, either. I know it must get tiring, fighting the same antiquated ideas, the same coercive practices time and again as new folks pop up, but I've been a member here for two years now, and I feel no different than I did the day I signed up. It was only just a few months ago that I was told my opinion didn't matter. My opinion can't even matter on a forum designated for people like me.

The boards here are not segregated. Using the word targeted might have been too strong; but that perception isn't mine alone, I'll take your word for it that it is just a coincidence. Ask any group here and they think the other side picks on them when really everyone just comes from differing perspectives. Since there are just a few original mothers who regularly post it is not mathematically possible that there are "tons" of us who are angry, bitter, guilty and hurt. You've made the incorrect leap several times that one of us must have had a bad experience...it's dismissive and marginalizing.One way to approach a difference in opinion is to simply ask "why do you say that?" Or, "have you looked at it this way?" Foster understanding and showing empathy goes a long way. And I need to remind myself that at times as well. CSquared, I'm sorry you don't feel respected. I actually learn the most from people outside my experience, but not everyone does. However, until TPTB invite me not to participate on this site, I'll post in any forum that interests me. If I'm out of line, Crick will get out her stick.

Let me just say first that we don't segregate here. Our site is not board specific in order to exclude others but rather to provide a place of commonality. That means you will see all members of the triad participating in discussions regardless of the forum/board one is posting in. 2nd - I do understand the relentless reminders some seem to give regarding adoption and where paps stand in adoption. It comes across with a "putting you in your place" tone, and I do understand the frustration. Per the site rules though, people can hone in on their opinions as long as they don't attack someone. So there is leeway associated with it. If you see personal attacks, then report the post and we'll review. If someone is continually on your personal threads just to tell you what you should and shouldn't say, then report that too. I can ban people from forums if need be. My hope though is that communication with all sides of the triad can be worked out. If not, then yes...I'll step in. 3rd - PAP, Bio, bmom, amom etc. are all names that are acceptable here. I've had numerous discussions with people who don't like x y and z term, and it is what it is. People can ask that you not refer to them personally as x, but no one gets to determine a general term. Lastly, this IS a specific forum FOR support and it needs to be respected. If you can't do so, then don't be surprised when you are banned from the discussion. There will be no warnings on this. You've all been around long enough to know the rules. That doesn't mean opinions aren't welcomed here. It means though that the line better not be crossed. I am a stickler about this for each triad's specific "strictly support" forum and everyone knows that.

CSquared I quoted your whole post because it is all worth reading again. I've read the "What I wish I could say" forum on the birth parent site and it's given me tons of insight in to the feelings of origin parents. I would never invalidate their feelings in such a disrespectful manor and I couldn't agree with you more. There is such a huge lack of respect for adoptive parents and these posts honestly show it. I appreciate your input and if you've found greener less bitter paths I'd love for you to PM me with the info. I've been on this forum (started as a foster parent) which I never heard a disrespectful tone. I did move over once we adopted and was looking for more wisdom. I don't feel as if you can ever be over educated and I wanted to gain as much wisdom as possible. Instead I found nothing but bitterness. I'd love for there to be some report which shows how many children in countries less adoption friendly are homeless, drug addicted or dead. As awful as an open adoption turning closed is; the alternative of whats possible is beyond awful. Sometimes I think we need to keep things in perspective and I think it gets lost sometimes and sometimes I want to complain that it has been lost. :thanks:

I do not and would not advocate segregation of the forums. That is not the issue. What I would advocate is asking where an adoptive parent might post here to ask for support from other adoptive parents, ask the questions that are hard to ask anyway for fear of judgement, and not fear well-mannered attack from non-adoptive parents. There is nowhere. Not even here. It's not something an administrator or moderator can enforce, respect. It's something you have to choose to do on your own. I choose not to enter the adoptee or birth parent forums to do anything other than read and learn. On the rare occasions when I respond, I do it by PM. You don't have to act exactly that way to be respectful, but my decisions are based on a basic respect for how the experience of the people for whom those forums are intended differs from mine, something which is missing from the adoptive parent forums.

Paigeturner - I have no words.... Crick - I don't think anyone wants a segregated forum or thread. Just looking to get "support" in the support thread and some people have lost sight of that particular fact. As I've said in other apparently Stalking posts (it shouldn't matter what side of the papers you fall on we are here to support each other). Trust me differences in opinions are what we're here for but these passive aggressive attacks aren't something to report it's just a shame and sometimes we PAP's get tired of it and that's what my thread was meant for. Not looking for you to block anyone (kinda works against our purpose). Just hoping for a bit of respect even in a difference of opinions. I did state specifically in my post that although I don't like being called a pap its not for me to decide what terms people use. I just wish that went both ways apparently some mothers of origin feel the need to correct PAP's or AP's on verbiage as if there is some rule book. Even respectful words. Being labeled a stalker by the few mothers of origin left on this forum is beyond ridiculous. Obviously we're going to post on the same posts. Didn't think that would ever get me labeled as a stalker nor did I realize I needed to study the dates of a post to avoid being labeled as such! CSquared - Beyond well said!

Actually elsewhere I've taken to called prospective adoption parents, prospective APs and HAPs (hopeful) - what suits you? It is of course quite long to type out prospective APs, whereas bmom instead of initials isn't much longer. Actually, I believe one can't actually type initials. Actually, I use the American bmom because bmum look a little rude lol. One should of course respect the feelings of HAPs but I think people are pointing out that their wishes shouldn't affect the outcome of the adoption. That is why a good agency will make sure that both parties accept that the emom is making an important decision about the future of her child and thus the decision needs in the end to be about her child and herself. She should treat the HAPs with respect during this but their actual wishes/needs can't be part of her decision. I don't know if that makes sense. I've just been reading on a well known agency site about how they say that they only make sure their emoms match when they are committed to their adoption plan and that scares me because it makes it sound as if once the emom and HAPs match, it is very difficult for the emom to back out. Of course you do. I personally now consider myself part of 4 family trees (admittedly I don't know one of them). The more the merrier. I'm sorry to hear about the abuse of you and family members. No-one is saying one has to acknowledge any of one's family members but they are all there in one's genes whether one likes that or not. If one does one of those 23andme tests where it shows ones distant genetic background, then it will of course reflect one's distant genetic relatives - that is the forever tie. I don't think adoptive families are second place. I can see that everyone on here loves their families every bit as much as any family. My family is the same :) There can be a misunderstanding because the truth is that in an ideal world, a child would be born and raised to the same functional parents - in adoption, a child is born to one set of parents before being raised by another set of parents and that very factor is a situation that all adopted children face and deal with. That doesn't mean that the adoptive family themselves isn't every bit as good as any biological family - eg in your case, of course your children are better off in your family, of course you were better off with your dad and stepmum. Bluebonnet at least part of the trouble is that everyone on here has a different interpretation of adoption. For adoptive parents, they almost always only refer to the second step, the actual adoption. For bmoms and adoptees, we are almost always referring to the relinquishment and adoption. I am an adoptee and I love my adoptive family and would not chose to have been adopted by another adoptive family. Feelings about relinquishment are a separate feeling altogether and are not a reflection on our families. Btw when was your dad adopted, Bluebonnet? I wonder if it was in the 1940s? In fact, adoptions back then were more open but things changed from the 1950s on. The funny thing is that if my bmom had become pregnant in the mid 1940s and contacted the very same organisation who organised my adoption, they would have treated her very differently - they originally started out as an organisation to help unwed mothers in all aspects. She may well have still relinquished but I could then rest easy that she would have had more options open to her. As for today's adoption, I hear some stories and rest easy that all is above board and I hear other stories and have concerns. See above re agency I talked about. If one's future spouse is still married to one's wife, then yeah, one does need to hold off a little. If one's future spouse is legally free, then go right ahead and dream your dreams. As for engagement, just say one's wedding is approaching and one actually realises that the marriage isn't going to work. However, the church is booked, presents have been bought, one's fiancee is so excited about the impeding nuptials - one can obviously imagine how truly difficult it is for someone to back out at that time when they know they will break someone's heart. When an emom sees the excitement of the prospective parents it can compromise her decision making because she is going to feel incredible guilt if she does change her mind. Bluebonnet, if it helps, my usual view re adoption is this When it comes to PERSONAL reasons for adoption, of course the adoptive parents should be adopting because they want to love and raise a child to adulthood. However, the ENTITY of ADOPTION should exist only to provide a home for children who need them. Thus prospective adoptive parents who want to raise a child are an excellent resource when a child needs a home. Does that make sense. One thing one finds about adoption is that there are contradictions at every corner. Sorry, did have to giggle there. As a newborn, I didn't exactly get to chose. Luckily, I did have a good family. I actually have a golden rule for both HAPs and BPs- i.e. to think about how they will tell their child about their adoption. That can often help HAPs and BPs to decide whether a particular course of action is good or not. As an adoptee whose apparently very lovely bmom died young, I found that hard to read as well. As an adoptee, I never felt that I was wrong to care and love both my families until I joined forums. I never felt that having interest in one's origins was wrong until I joined forums. However, I do accept that that is always going to be the case when one joins forums when one party is all about the nurture and other parties are just starting to discover their nature side. Nurture is very important but some people do want to explore their nature without feeling like they are betraying their nurture. Also many of us are domestic infant adoptees and thus we have discovered that our biological origins aren't all that hideous. I refuse to say either biological or adoptive family are better than each other because I can't really know. I have a nice life and love and appreciate my family and friends. Many of us have learned to separate our adoptive families from our adoptions - they are two separate things. Many of us adore our adoptive families and wouldn't chose any other adoptive family. However that is separate to our relinquishment/adoption and all the politics surrounding adoption. Thus one can say that a loving adoptive family is a beautiful thing - thus your family is beautiful Bluebonnet. Adoption itself is a multifaceted thing. The Adoption Industry is not a beautiful thing (with concentration on the word Industry).

I'm sorry that you are tired of what you perceive to be angry birth/first mothers on these boards. It always fascinates me how often people paint us as "angry or bitter" if we don't bend over backwards or if we have a difference of opinion. It's one of the reasons I don't post all that often lately.

Well said and appreciated Kingstonrule!

You mean like Canada, Australia etc? (and most other western nations)

Raven I don't think it has anything to do with a difference of opinion. More of a tone or attitude in general when looking at the forum as a whole.

I never labeled you a stalker. Not once. And to clarify, though I doubt it will matter because you seem to insist on hearing vitriol when there is none, it was two adoptees and an adoptive mother who commented to me that it appeared you were following another poster; I had noticed it as well. When you said that wasn't the case I said I would take your word for it. I meant it. I think this has the potential to be a really good thread and I'm glad you posted it. Clearly you were hurt by the posts many of us made in the "things I wish I could say" thread. I went back and read the entire thread again. Many of the posts were made by new members, many were made by adoptive parents and adoptees. Looking at it with new eyes I can see how some of come across as angry but I don't think any of them were poking at adoptive parents. Speaking only for my posts, they were aimed at society in general and at the multi-billion dollar per year adoption industry. I hate it that big money is extracted from hopeful adoptive parents in their quest for a child. I dislike stereotypes. It was also my son's birthday when I posted several times. It was not a joyful day for me. Adoptive parents are not my enemy. If I can make people question preconceived ideas or rethink something, I don't think that's a bad thing. I've certainly learned a lot over the years from adoptive parents here and I've celebrated with them as they've grown their families. I expect I still have a lot to learn.

I am not anti-adoption...neither am I pro-adoption. It's a necessary option in my opinion. I am all for ethics and full disclosure within the adoption industry. I am not angry about placing my son up for adoption, sad maybe, but not angry or bitter. It is what it is. I do get angry, though, about certain facets of the process, especially when I see agencies advertising for pregnant women by promising living expenses and luxury vacations and tours through Hollywood. I get angry when I see open adoptions closed for no reason other than the APs never really wanted one to begin with. I get tired of hearing what a wonderful thing adoption is when pregnant women inquire about it...and then having to talk some of those women off the ledge here in the middle of the night months later after they've signed the relinquishment papers. There have been at least three suicides in the years that I've been a member here by young women who didn't fully realize the emotional impact that relinquishment would cause them. There have been two suicides by bmom members who experienced horrible reunions with their grown children. This stuff can be life-or-death literally. And that's why I continue to speak up when I read something that's upsetting in terms of ethics or when I see APs automatically assume that the first mothers on these boards are angry or bitter. Those two words have the same effect on bmoms on the boards that amoms would experience if we were to call them self-entitled.